If born male you biologically stay male until you die? Yes?

[daisiesonmydress]

Just that really. That's my understanding. No matter how you dress or what surgery you have?

And you can legally say this too?

Having trans training at work in January so just making sure if it comes up - which given we are all older women being re-educated I'm sure it will!

This is going to depend on how you define ´biologically male’. Someone’s chromosomes are not going to change and they won’t magically acquire functioning female reproductive organs (no womb, no possibility of becoming pregnant). Once someone’s bones have finished growing they’re not going to shrink, and muscle mass is not going to reduce to typically female levels overnight (but it will change). But bone density could reduce and bodyfat/muscle ratio will change with hormone treatment.
I think it’s easy to argue that trans women are not able to acquire all the different aspects of what it means to be biologically female, rather than arguing that they forever remain biologically male.

Yes. You are right. And yes, weirdly, there is a recent court case that enshrines your right to say so in law.

Look up Maya Forstater threads for some really good details and sentences to have at your fingertips.

I think it’s easy to argue that trans women are not able to acquire all the different aspects of what it means to be biologically female, rather than arguing that they forever remain biologically male.

Twaddle. It is incontravertibly true that human beings are genetically male or female (and no, 'intersex' doesn't change that)

Masculinity and femininity are social constructs, gender expectations. And any human being can express themselves using any of them as and when they wish to. But that won't change their sex.

Pfaffing around, being nice, offering some halfway house pleasantries doesn't help.

Sex is immutable
Trans rights are human rights
Womens rights are not for men

A man taking female hormones is still a man!

He will still need a prostrate check whatever he wears or adds to his body. He will never be at risk from ovarian cancer or need a smear test.

No one in the history of the world has ever changed their sex. And no one ever will.

But bone density could reduce and bodyfat/muscle ratio will change with hormone treatment.

If that were true male prostate cancer sufferers could also be examples of people changing sex? Taking medication which has certain side effects doesn't change your sex.

Many years ago a wise Mumsneter linked me to this thread.

It's still invaluable

sexandgenderintro.com/

A very small man is still 100% male. A very small man who takes female hormones is still 100% male.

Size had no bearing on our sex.

Wtf is 'trans training'?

Yes, a male will always be male. That's their sex, and you .

I can't even believe we've come to the point where people even question this.

No men cannot become women any more than they can become horses or Spiderman or a goldfish.

Its as ridiculous as believing people can somehow be born in the wrong body. Nonsensical, unhelpful hooey.

@Changelingbutonlyforme

This is going to depend on how you define ´biologically male’. Someone’s chromosomes are not going to change and they won’t magically acquire functioning female reproductive organs (no womb, no possibility of becoming pregnant). Once someone’s bones have finished growing they’re not going to shrink, and muscle mass is not going to reduce to typically female levels overnight (but it will change). But bone density could reduce and bodyfat/muscle ratio will change with hormone treatment. I think it’s easy to argue that trans women are not able to acquire all the different aspects of what it means to be biologically female, rather than arguing that they forever remain biologically male.

Nope.

But bone density could reduce and bodyfat/muscle ratio will change with hormone treatment.

A male losing bone density, muscle mass due to hormone treatment is still a male losing bone density, muscle mass due to hormone treatment.

What if that male stops hormones (and we know this happens!), do they magically change back from ‘nearly acquiring aspects of female biology’ to being male again?

Cells are encoded with your sex. Remove the suppression and if the relevant organs are still in workable order, the body will revert to the processes it was designed to do.

Males remain male, irrespective of any surgery or drugs or hormones or wigs or dresses or tinkly laughs.
Females remain female irrespective of any surgery or drugs or hormones or wigs or boxer shorts or beard growth.
No human can change sex.

@Shmithecat2

Wtf is 'trans training'?

Yes, a male will always be male. That's their sex, and you .

It's called Gender Equality Awareness but we all know what is happening to us.

I suspect asking us to display our pronouns will be a consequence of the workshop.

I'm two years off retirement and don't give a fuck but others not so lucky so it will fall to me to speak up.

Yes it's true.

If an archaeologist in the future were to dig up the bones of any human living now, they won't see the "gender identity" of the skeleton. They use identifiers like pelvis shape or jawline which don't change in gender transitioning.

Some skeletons even have DNA that can be used to determine sex and more.

Humans can't change sex - SHOCK.

Not to derail, but I found this quite enlightening.

twitter.com/theironlabia/status/1477801099306450945?s=21

Some Trans people are objecting to people using AMAB and AFAB to state their boundaries. Some people are angry ‘their’ words are being stolen and misused (eerrrrr.. another group of people probably want those terms back for themselves you hypocrits).

But apparently, people advertising for flatmates insisting on AFAB people only is not ok for some people.

Good luck with your brainwashing work training.

Have some from me

@daisiesonmydress

Just that really. That's my understanding. No matter how you dress or what surgery you have?

And you can legally say this too?

As you can't see someone's biology and it won't be displayed on their gravestone it doesn't matter.

Correct.

A man with brittle bones is not a woman.
A man with low muscle mass and high body fat is not a woman.
A man taking oestrogen pills is not a woman.
A man without a penis is not a woman.

No man can become a woman. Humans can't change sex.

I would like to know to always what you can say in a public forum.
Can we say legitimately that whatever sex and gender you are born with remains the same throughout your life? ie you can behave differently and dress differently but you either male or female.

As you can't see someone's biology and it won't be displayed on their gravestone it doesn't matter.

Eh?
You can't see someone's biology 😂
What, ever?
And someone's biology doesn't matter, ever?
Come on.. ...

If asked to display pronouns, what if I put she/her/AFAB?

I’m not saying that it’s possible for a person born male to become female. At all. I’m saying it’s a stronger argument in a situation where people will be picking holes in your logic to say that transwomen cannot become entirely like women from a biological point of view because Uterus, Chromosomes, likely already experienced male puberty etc. The problem with saying that people born biologically male forever remain biologically male is that the counter arguments are going to get messy. If your definition of ´male’ includes ´has male sex organs and produces sperm’ well, surgery can change that. But surgery can’t give a transwomen a functioning uterus and egg producing ovaries.
Relying on chromosomes as the defining biological characteristic is asking for a pointless and irrelevant debate about chromosomal abnormalities.

As you can't see someone's biology and it won't be displayed on their gravestone it doesn't matter.

Except, when it does matter? Except when sex matters. Then, it matters.

changeling

How about this?

A male human has a body that has been formed around the production of small gametes, whether that body successfully produces those gametes, has produced or has the ability to produce them, or not.

Thereby also including any male with a medical condition or who suppresses production medically.