If born male you biologically stay male until you die? Yes?

[daisiesonmydress]

Just that really. That's my understanding. No matter how you dress or what surgery you have?

And you can legally say this too?

P.S I have been subjected to Gendered Intelligence training and it was more of. PinkAndBlueWash, and full of factual misinformation, than training useful for a healthy workplace.

As you can't see someone's biology and it won't be displayed on their gravestone it doesn't matter.

Come again? You can’t see someone’s biology? What a load of old rubbish. Their “biology” is their material body.

I despair at the amount of people coming out with daft stuff like this. If you mean you can’t see their chromosomes, say so - but our bodies are evidence of our chromosomes. We’re able to tell someone’s sex almost instantly from innumerable biological cues.

Trans people don’t pass without extensive surgery and hormones - almost none do so even with that to be honest - so in what universe is that actually changing sex?

gulliblestravels
I suppose if you had your reproductive system removed, eventually the test of your body functions would reach a state where you were no longer male or female, and maybe some physical characteristics from the ‘given up’ sex, pelvis shape, arm joints, brain hemisphere connections etc might minimise.. because it really isn’t accurate to use the terms man or woman as descriptors min this context, in my opinion

I am choosing my words very carefully because this this post might just be the most enraging post I have ever seen on MN and I will be reporting it as hateful.

I have had my reproductive organs removed for medical reasons. I am l 100% female

IT IS REALLY REALY FUCKING OFFENSIVE to say that I have turned into a male

To answer the question- YES

@daisiesonmydress

If asked to display pronouns, what if I put she/her/AFAB?

Say you don’t buy into the gender ideology behind pronouns

sex-matters.org/posts/updates/pronouns/

@WomanStillNotAFeeling

gulliblestravels I suppose if you had your reproductive system removed, eventually the test of your body functions would reach a state where you were no longer male or female, and maybe some physical characteristics from the ‘given up’ sex, pelvis shape, arm joints, brain hemisphere connections etc might minimise.. because it really isn’t accurate to use the terms man or woman as descriptors min this context, in my opinion

I am choosing my words very carefully because this this post might just be the most enraging post I have ever seen on MN and I will be reporting it as hateful.

I have had my reproductive organs removed for medical reasons. I am l 100% female

IT IS REALLY REALY FUCKING OFFENSIVE to say that I have turned into a male

I don't knownif some people are willfully nasty or just stupid, but having been in the same situation as you I agree with every word. 💐

@gulliblestravels did you mean to be this nasty? You should be ashamed of yourself, it’s not enough for you to allow males to colonise womens spaces you want to redefine women to be some sexless almost male as well. You’re sick and disgusting.

Absolutely yes, and I believe that should be all that's needed to say.
Why on earth should anyone have to explain why this is when it just is?
No opinion changes it, it's a fact.

TheWeeDonkey thank-you. Today is the first time I’ve cried as a result of having a hysterectomy

Here's the Endocrine Society on sexual dimorphism:

' Sex is dichotomous, with sex determination in the fertilized zygote stemming from unequal expression of sex chromosomal genes. By contrast, gender includes perception of the individual as male, female, or other, both by the individual and by society; both humans and animals have sex, but only humans have gender'

'sex is not the same thing as gender and using these terms as equivalents obfuscates differences that are real and important in society in general and biomedical research in particular.'

'Sex is an essential part of vertebrate biology, but gender is a human phenomenon; sex often influences gender, but gender cannot influence sex. '

academic.oup.com/edrv/article/42/3/219/6159361

I don't see anything in there specifically explaining that it's not possible to change sex, but I think that's because most people wouldn't even imagine it's an argument that needs to be made.

It's not possible to change sex. Ever.

Gender is infinite, variable, subjective and changeable - sex is dichotomous and fixed.

@WomanStillNotAFeeling

TheWeeDonkey thank-you. Today is the first time I’ve cried as a result of having a hysterectomy

I'm really sorry.

Oh joy ye olde “you just can’t tell”

Yeah you can….

OP re the pronoun question there are many threads on that here so I don’t want to repeat them as you can read them. But it is actually AGAINST the Yogyakarta Principles to make pronoun declarations mandatory. I have successfully stopped very woke organisations from doing this by making this point. So I would suggest you say something like - it’s against the YP to demand pronouns as it risks forcing a trans person to out themselves when they are not ready.

I suppose if you had your reproductive system removed, eventually the test of your body functions would reach a state where you were no longer male or female, and maybe some physical characteristics from the ‘given up’ sex, pelvis shape, arm joints, brain hemisphere connections etc might minimise.. because it really isn’t accurate to use the terms man or woman as descriptors min this context, in my opinion

Eh? I don’t think I understand what you are saying here. Surely you are not suggesting that a woman who has undergone a complete hysterectomy is no longer a woman?

If that is what you are suggesting then you are very much wrong!

@Theeyeballsinthesky

Oh joy ye olde “you just can’t tell”

Yeah you can….

Ah yes! Shakira, Shakira...

No human can change sex. But everyone can get elective surgery assuming they’re declared sane/trans first, or take sex hormones - you can’t change sex but you can change your body a bit if you so wish.

No matter what argument you use to answer OPs question, you’ll always get Roger or Rita Irrevelant coming back at you. Hormones, ops, skirts v trousers, etc..

Trying to muddy the waters of medical fact can be done a million ways. It’s a bore cos the arguments all just mud.

The crux of the trans debate is feeling v. Fact - whether a small group of men’s emotions outweigh the rights and truths of majority humanity ie women.

I’m a believer in manners and tolerance as essential to society as bodies are. So for me, TWAW but not at anyone else’s expense or making an ass of the law or science.

If there ever is a genuine way to change sex, it’s highly unlikely TW would take it - 80 per cent refuse to remove their testicles and penis.

Oh boy, I can see your body moving
Half animal, half man

Shakira, Wyclef Jean, 2006

This was based on an earlier paper by the same author:

You'll never have to wonder
We can always play by ear
But that's the deal, my dear

'Wherever, Whenever', Paper by S Hakira, 2001

Yes. Shakira knows what a man is, and how to spot one at any distance

I suppose if you had your reproductive system removed, eventually the test of your body functions would reach a state where you were no longer male or female, and maybe some physical characteristics from the ‘given up’ sex, like pelvis shape, arm joints, brain hemisphere connections etc might minimise.(

Putting aside for a moment the sheer (presumably thoughtless) offensiveness of that idea, it's also demonstrably untrue. Women who've had their reproductive organs removed don't magically find their pelvis changes shape, their height increasing etc.
'Gullible' indeed.

I've had double mastectomy without reconstruction for breast cancer.
As part of treatment I also had ovaries and fallopian tubes removed.
I went from pregnancy to breast feeding to surgical menopause in less than a year.
And now apparently someone thinks I'm mutating into an actual man.
Better tell the kids I've transitioned and they'll have to call me Dad now.
Has the world gone completely mad?

@Bonhex - yes the world has gone completely mad, or the global North at least. This is one of the few sane corners remaining.

As to AFAB and that type of nonsense, I don't see what's wrong with OFAB (Observed Female At Birth) if we absolutely must engage with idiots along these lines.

Bonhex

Humans don't revert to sexlessness if they don't have physical sex organs as if there is a natural place in the middle we would all roll to like a couch that is saggy in the middle. That couch is saggy in two places. The male side and the female side.

Bonhex

Rightsraptor

OFAB still makes it sound like it’s an arbitrary decision and will do nothing to change the view of idiots that think that biological sex is something that can change.

Yes, @PrincessNutella.
Except it's not saggy at all, we are still very much male or female.