If born male you biologically stay male until you die? Yes?

[daisiesonmydress]

Just that really. That's my understanding. No matter how you dress or what surgery you have?

And you can legally say this too?

"But bone density could reduce and bodyfat/muscle ratio will change with hormone treatment."

A man who cripples himself is not in any tiny way a woman.

You weren't AFAB, though. You were observed to be female.

@Helleofabore I would say the weakness in that definition lies is the passive construction ´is formed around’ You’ve left out the agent, so there’s room for someone to argue that becoming a transwoman is a way of forming one’s own body around the imagined production of large gametes. Or forming one’s own body around the image one has of one’s imagined gender.

The only bodily thing I personally form is a pile of ….

@daisiesonmydress

If asked to display pronouns, what if I put she/her/AFAB?

It's up to you, of course, but I'd just decline. Depending on the circumstances I'd either say 'I don't mind' or 'whatever you want' or explain that I was opposed to the idea and mention stereotype threat. I'd refuse to wear a badge or put anything in my display name online.

I don't like AFAB because nobody is 'assigned' anything at birth. Sex is observed.

I read a novel recently in which an intelligent, scientifically minded character has a pregnancy scan and then excitedly tells someone that she now knows which gender the baby will be assigned at birth - it's a girl! Utter illogical nonsense. (And if one did believe in 'assigning', surely by saying this, she's already done it, before birth!)

@Changelingbutonlyforme

I’m not saying that it’s possible for a person born male to become female. At all. I’m saying it’s a stronger argument in a situation where people will be picking holes in your logic to say that transwomen cannot become entirely like women from a biological point of view because Uterus, Chromosomes, likely already experienced male puberty etc. The problem with saying that people born biologically male forever remain biologically male is that the counter arguments are going to get messy. If your definition of ´male’ includes ´has male sex organs and produces sperm’ well, surgery can change that. But surgery can’t give a transwomen a functioning uterus and egg producing ovaries. Relying on chromosomes as the defining biological characteristic is asking for a pointless and irrelevant debate about chromosomal abnormalities.

And my response was Twaddle because I am passed caring about counter arguments, they too are twaddle.

We are in this mess because too many of us, me, politicians, others, people in general, tried to be understanding and polite. All that got us was men in women's prisons, sports etc.

There are no counter arguments.

Men are men
Women are women

Being trans doesn't change that reality. It just changes the social presentation of an individual. And that isn't problematic because who actually cares?

Trying to square that circle and to give a little actually enables the dismantling of safeguarding measures. Only women and girls have their safeguarding ignored. So no... I won't make any concession in the language and anyone trying to pick holes in my logic will be told to take their gender religion and anti scientific bollocks elsewhere.

Biologically, human sex is most definitely immutable. Male, female, intersex... By the time you're born, the die is cast. Certain intersex conditions only become apparent at puberty, but the nature of the individual didn’t change.

The issue gets muddled a bit when pumping cross-sex hormones and hormone inhibitors into sexed bodies, but this is not much different to dyeing someone's hair a different colour: a brunette remains a brunette (even with blond dye), a male remains a male. Stop the "treatment", and the roots start showing soon enough.
More permanent body modifications remain cosmetic, and not functionally or structurally equivalent to the real deal. Tissues retain their original characteristics, at a cellular level. Reproductive organs (in particular the ones producing gametes) can't be changed.

That being said... The GRA created the legal fiction of sex change, and that's a problem: legal sex and biological sex are now two different concepts.
Quite frankly, this makes zero sense (especially since the GRA is an anachronism which was made redundant by the legalisation of same-sex marriage), but here we are...

[quote Changelingbutonlyforme]@Helleofabore I would say the weakness in that definition lies is the passive construction ´is formed around’ You’ve left out the agent, so there’s room for someone to argue that becoming a transwoman is a way of forming one’s own body around the imagined production of large gametes. Or forming one’s own body around the image one has of one’s imagined gender.[/quote]
And anyone saying that will be roundly laughed at.

Try that with a strawberry or a millionaire instead of man/woman and see if you can still say it with a straight face!

A eunuch remains a man, despite being castrated. A castrated male animal eg dog, cat, horse, remains male. I don't see why this is a difficult concept. Ask any vet.

Gender equality used to mean sex equality and female rights. Now it's been hijacked by the genderists to indoctrinate the masses to the new orthodoxy.

If you have nothing to lose, call them out on every piece of batshitery.

[quote Changelingbutonlyforme]@Helleofabore I would say the weakness in that definition lies is the passive construction ´is formed around’ You’ve left out the agent, so there’s room for someone to argue that becoming a transwoman is a way of forming one’s own body around the imagined production of large gametes. Or forming one’s own body around the image one has of one’s imagined gender.[/quote]
So narrow it. Limit it to ‘while in the womb’ or ‘at birth’ .

I agree, I have seen discussions where males have tried twisting language to make it fit their desire to be seen as female.

I have written posts where I have had to use my definition because a male kept twisting the meaning of anything else we said on the thread.

We saw everything. They were ‘cis’, they were always female …. It went on for pages.

As soon as you brought up bodies they declared that their pelvis had changed shape, everything.

@gulliblestravels

It must be a question of relativism v absolutism?

The biological facts are that F= large gamete (egg)
M = small gamete (sperm)

I suppose if you had your reproductive system removed, eventually the test of your body functions would reach a state where you were no longer male or female, and maybe some physical characteristics from the ‘given up’ sex, like pelvis shape, arm joints, brain hemisphere connections etc might minimise. From that perspective, I think the term ‘trans-sexual human’ is more accurate than trans-man or trans-woman, because it really isn’t accurate to use the terms man or woman as descriptors in this context, in my opinion.

Not really. A man has XX chromosomes which is what means he makes the small gametes. You can't change chromosomes so even if you remove everything which would be needed to make sperm, you are still a man.

In the many years I've been sticking up for women's rights it often strikes me just how preposterous it is to even argue with people who claim human beings can change sex. It's simply not true. It's total bollocks. Transwomen are unequivocally male and the reverse is true of transmen.

There's no pill or surgery that turns a man into a woman. These are cosmetic treatments. It's not subtle. The arguments are not messy. You belong to one sex class to the other. A man without a penis? A man. An intersex man? A man. A man with low testosterone? Still, every bit as legitimately a man as every other man.

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee
XY. Women have XX chromosomes, men have XY.

[quote Changelingbutonlyforme]@Whatiswrongwithmyknee
XY. Women have XX chromosomes, men have XY.[/quote]
oops - yes! They still don't change though regardless of what you put into/ lop off your body though I think you are agreeing with me about that.

I enjoyed reading JackieWeavers link thank you.

A man remains a man. Whether he goes down the path of extensive surgery and hormonal treatment, just puts on a wig and calls himself Mandy, or anything in between, he is still a man. Men need to be more accepting of men who do not conform to stereotypes of masculinity, and we need to stop indulging their insistence that they are women.

No they don’t change. But some people are born with different variations (XXX, XYY, XXY, XXXX etc.) That’s the messy irrelevant debate you don’t want to get drawn into.

Yep. That is the irrelevant distraction often offered up as a Gotcha!

Usually by people who learned their biological science the same way so many recently became expert virologists.

@daisiesonmydress

If asked to display pronouns, what if I put she/her/AFAB?

I would probably say 'no thanks' or 'whatever you think is correct' if feeling like being polite or a emoji if I wasn't.

Or I would be tempted to say 'My pronouns are irrelevant; you may not refer to me when you are not in my presence'

[quote JackieWeaversZoomAc]Many years ago a wise Mumsneter linked me to this thread.

It's still invaluable

sexandgenderintro.com/[/quote]
I hadn't seen this before, so thank you. A thorough and balanced view of the issues. A really excellent read; I recommend it.

Gender Equality Awareness training should have some interesting and useful information about the glass ceiling and why women are paid less and what can be done to help women get ahead in organisations, surely? Also flexible working and how we can encourage and support women back into the workforce after having children or during the menopause. Or the increased burden of caring for elderly relatives.

I am clear that sex is sex and immutable, and gender is gender, a social construct, that some of us seem to feel more of an identity with than others.

Gender Equality training for the workplace should surely be about equal opps, not making discriminatory comments, maintaining an environment in which someone feels able to do their best and fulfil their potential.

How much of that requires arguing with Trans people about their biology?

Every cell in our body is sexed.

This never changes despite surgeries and hormones.

Sex is binary.