If born male you biologically stay male until you die? Yes?

[daisiesonmydress]

Just that really. That's my understanding. No matter how you dress or what surgery you have?

And you can legally say this too?

Bonhex . I hope you are recovering well.

As to AFAB and that type of nonsense, I don't see what's wrong with OFAB (Observed Female At Birth) if we absolutely must engage with idiots along these lines.

It's a deliberate muddling of sex and gender. A doctor or midwife observes sex at birth, athough this is often done in utero via ultrasound. It might be possible to say that gender is 'assigned' on the basis of sex, and this is why genderists use 'AFAB'.

@Changelingbutonlyforme

This is going to depend on how you define ´biologically male’. Someone’s chromosomes are not going to change and they won’t magically acquire functioning female reproductive organs (no womb, no possibility of becoming pregnant). Once someone’s bones have finished growing they’re not going to shrink, and muscle mass is not going to reduce to typically female levels overnight (but it will change). But bone density could reduce and bodyfat/muscle ratio will change with hormone treatment. I think it’s easy to argue that trans women are not able to acquire all the different aspects of what it means to be biologically female, rather than arguing that they forever remain biologically male.

This post is absolute nonsense.

Yes. Even after you die. If an archaeologist digs up a skeleton in 2,000 years they can tell what sex it is.

Not really. A man has XX chromosomes which is what means he makes the small gametes. You can't change chromosomes so even if you remove everything which would be needed to make sperm, you are still a man.

Men have XY chromosomes. Women have XX chromosomes. Men produce small mobile gametes. Women produce large non-motile gametes.

Pronouns aren't law and you can't be forced to do so.

My bone density has decreased.
I shrank two inches.
Still female, will always be female.
If that happened to a male, and it can because of how it happened would he just be a shorter male, or a female?

Your sex is fixed at conception and never ever changes.

[quote Rightsraptor]@Bonhex - yes the world has gone completely mad, or the global North at least. This is one of the few sane corners remaining.

As to AFAB and that type of nonsense, I don't see what's wrong with OFAB (Observed Female At Birth) if we absolutely must engage with idiots along these lines.[/quote]
Or simply ‘born male’ / ‘born female’.

You are what you are.

@HoardingSamphireSaurus while having those views is a protected belief, you do no get to use those views to create a hostile work environment. So @daisiesonmydress go for, try using the Forstater case, see what happens.

@Linguini

Yes it's true.

If an archaeologist in the future were to dig up the bones of any human living now, they won't see the "gender identity" of the skeleton. They use identifiers like pelvis shape or jawline which don't change in gender transitioning.

Some skeletons even have DNA that can be used to determine sex and more.

Humans can't change sex - SHOCK.

Waits for future archaeologists to be accused of misgendering and literal violence.

@WomanStillNotAFeeling

gulliblestravels I suppose if you had your reproductive system removed, eventually the test of your body functions would reach a state where you were no longer male or female, and maybe some physical characteristics from the ‘given up’ sex, pelvis shape, arm joints, brain hemisphere connections etc might minimise.. because it really isn’t accurate to use the terms man or woman as descriptors min this context, in my opinion

I am choosing my words very carefully because this this post might just be the most enraging post I have ever seen on MN and I will be reporting it as hateful.

I have had my reproductive organs removed for medical reasons. I am l 100% female

IT IS REALLY REALY FUCKING OFFENSIVE to say that I have turned into a male

But its ok to be offensive in the same way to someone who's had gender re-assignment, yes?

Butits ok to be offensive in the same way to someone who's had gender re-assignment, yes?

Well.not 'the same way'. A different way. Which involves refusing to lie. So yes. If that causes offence then I think people need to work on why the truth is so difficult to hear.

There are things in my life that are both hurtful and true. I am working to make those things less hurtful to hear because that's the only thing we can do, right?

A young woman with anorexia may be upset and feel disrespected if told that she is lifethreateningly thin, but it has to be said. There are many times in life when we have to say something that may cause offence, because pretending it's not happening may have serious consequences. Learning to cope with hard truths is an essential part of growing up and being an adult.

But its ok to be offensive in the same way to someone who's had gender re-assignment, yes?

It's nowhere near the same. Someone who has had gender reassignment surgery hasn't changed sex. This isn't possible and some surgeons, in this country at least, insist that potential patients show they understand that gender surgery does not and will not change their sex before they agree to perform the operation. If someone who has had this surgery claims it has changed their sex they're near enough delusional.

Of COURSE someone born male will be male forever. And vice versa.

NO SURGICAL OR HORMONAL interventions change genetics or DNA or chromosomes.

Sex change is impossible. Sex is binary. There is no "spectrum". Immutable, unchangeable, eternal.

I can't believe this question needs to be asked. It doesn't matter how you "define" male or female. Biology will not be denied.
And removal of reproductive organs does NOT CHANGE your sex. FFS.

But its ok to be offensive in the same way to someone who's had gender re-assignment, yes?

Sorry, in what way has cosmetic surgery and hormones ‘changed’ someone’s sex?

Gender re-assignment:is fine, it's not changed your sex though.

But its ok to be offensive in the same way to someone who's had gender re-assignment, yes

A woman who has had her uterus / ovaries/ breasts removed for medical reasons, for example, is still a woman. She is a woman in her DNA. To suggest that her womanhood snd female sex is eradicated by life saving surgery is wildly offensive AND FACTUALLY WRONG.

A trans person is likewise defined in terms of sex by their DNA.
However they live gender wise, however they feel, whatever surgery they have or hormonal adjustments they make. That they remain the sex if their chromosomes is a fact.

It would offensive, IMO, to mock or belittle that person for their trans status or gender. And other forms of abuse and discrimination that have been levelled at trans people.

But simply stating that sex is binary and immutable is a fact. How can it carry the subjective quality of ‘offensive’?

Redlake
But its ok to be offensive in the same way to someone who’s had gender re-assignment, yes?

It is not the same at all.

I am female, born female, living female, will die female. I cannot not change that nor would I want to.

A male who has elective cosmetic surgery to create an imitation of external female characteristics asking us to say they are also a woman is trying to make us say something we know is untrue.

And that poster was weaponising essential sometimes lifesaving surgery on women to say women like me are turning into men.

@ISpyCobraKai

Gender re-assignment:is fine, it's not changed your sex though.

Yes, the (mighty visible) clue is in the descriptor. Gender re-assignment, not sex re-assignment.

It can't be that hard to comprehend, surely?

Change your gender to whatever ever you like, it doesn't change your sex. Ever!

@Redlake

But its ok to be offensive in the same way to someone who's had gender re-assignment, yes?

So, it's offensive to not feel obliged to validate someone?

A biological male remains a man until they die then they become dust.

@Changelingbutonlyforme

This is going to depend on how you define ´biologically male’. Someone’s chromosomes are not going to change and they won’t magically acquire functioning female reproductive organs (no womb, no possibility of becoming pregnant). Once someone’s bones have finished growing they’re not going to shrink, and muscle mass is not going to reduce to typically female levels overnight (but it will change). But bone density could reduce and bodyfat/muscle ratio will change with hormone treatment. I think it’s easy to argue that trans women are not able to acquire all the different aspects of what it means to be biologically female, rather than arguing that they forever remain biologically male.

Low bone density equals male?

Having an artificially induced hormone imbalance is not being female, nor surgery to appear like a typical woman

@WomanStillNotAFeeling

TheWeeDonkey thank-you. Today is the first time I’ve cried as a result of having a hysterectomy

So sorry woman

My mum had a hysterectomy at 27, she’d have calked anyone making that kind of comment ‘a nasty piece of work’

💐

But its ok to be offensive in the same way to someone who's had gender re-assignment, yes

Oh good lord