If born male you biologically stay male until you die? Yes?

[daisiesonmydress]

Just that really. That's my understanding. No matter how you dress or what surgery you have?

And you can legally say this too?

@ChloeCrocodile

Biologically, we can give a male the biological secondary sex characteristics of a female.

No we cannot. Secondary sex characteristics of adult human females cannot be produced in male bodies. We can cosmetically alter the appearance of a male body to better approximate a female body, but we cannot replicate the functions and properties of a vagina.

The secondary sex characteristics are many.

The vagina is one because we can in fact create one through vaginoplasty surgery where the penis is split and then used to create an internal vagina. After which, the surgeon then does a labioplasty to create the labia and vulva. In addition, a uterus including cervix can and has been successfully implanted in transwomen- attaching it to the neovagina and linking into the pelvic circulatory system which is the same in men and women anyway. We are only a few years from transwomen being able to get pregnant.

In addition, they have voice box surgery to create higher pitched female voice.

In addition, breasts are not just implanted but they have successfully given transwomen the right cocktail of hormones such that they can produce breast milk and breast feed.

Hormone therapy also eliminates male facial and body hair.

Any other secondary sex characteristics you’d like to discuss? My aim in changing the OPs statement was to keep her out of trouble by giving her a statement of fact that is 100% irrefutable. I still think “biology” and “biologically” are too broad and open to counter arguments and thus accusations of transphobia.

@ErrolTheDragon
There is a difference between “probably” and “most probably” though.
Probably simply means 50%-74% chance of happening.
Most probably means 75%-95% chance of happening.

I still think most probably is fairly accurate thing to say given the pace of technology today as measured over an average human lifetime of 75yrs.

@EmpressCixi

It’s more accurate to say if born genetically male, you will most probably stay genetically male until you die.

This is because “biology” is too broad a term given today’s advances in medicine. Biologically, we can arrest puberty which is a biological process of maturing. Biologically we can make a genetically male person have the hormones of a female through hormone therapy. Biologically, we can give a male the biological secondary sex characteristics of a female.

The only think we cannot do (yet) is change the sex chromosomes in a person’s DNA. But DNA therapy is in its infancy and could change in our lifetimes.

No. Just no. Why pander to an ideology that is so damaging to all?

Why make such a long reach in order to leave that door open, to be nice?

Seriously, why do you feel the need to do that?

I think we need receipts for this assertion...

In addition, a uterus including cervix can and has been successfully implanted in transwomen- attaching it to the neovagina and linking into the pelvic circulatory system which is the same in men and women anyway. We are only a few years from transwomen being able to get pregnant.

And what the fuck is a 'pelvic circulatory system'.

You can't just make up physiological systems to sound clever. Some of us are bloody physiologists, biomechanists.

We are only a few years from transwomen being able to get pregnant.

No. Just no. The perpetuation of this causes harm to the trans community. At what point can a male body sustain a foetus to ensure that that foetus receives all it needs from the body growing it. Or are we saying it is ethical now to grow a human in a bag with artifical hormones and other artifical supplements so that a male can carry a child?

The vagina is one because we can in fact create one through vaginoplasty surgery where the penis is split and then used to create an internal vagina. After which, the surgeon then does a labioplasty to create the labia and vulva. In addition, a uterus including cervix can and has been successfully implanted in transwomen- attaching it to the neovagina and linking into the pelvic circulatory system which is the same in men and women anyway.

And please stop this.

A cosmetic modelling of another body part to resemble a 'vagina', is NOT a vagina. At best it is a neo-vagina and will always be a neo-vagina.

Again, this is harmful to allow males to believe they have now acquired a vagina and that is exactly like a female vagina.

Who thinks that allowing someone to believe they have something that they have clearly not actually got is healthy?

[quote EmpressCixi]@ErrolTheDragon
There is a difference between “probably” and “most probably” though.
Probably simply means 50%-74% chance of happening.
Most probably means 75%-95% chance of happening.

I still think most probably is fairly accurate thing to say given the pace of technology today as measured over an average human lifetime of 75yrs.[/quote]
I think you are wildly overestimating the probability - personally I doubt it's even a possibility.

@HoardingSamphireSaurus

It’s not pandering to an ideology to restrict statements to 100% irrefutable fact. I am actually ensuring the OP is closing a door...saying “biologically” is opening the door for her to be criticised and accused of transphobia because it is too vague and too broad given current capabilities in medicine. I am being nice, to the OP. She’s said she’s a middle aged woman about to undergo mandatory trans training at work. And we all know that training is code for flush out the nonbelievers. My advice is based on how to express irrefutable fact without being pegged as a transphobic bigot and then sacked. I don’t think anyone should lose their job over this, but let’s face facts, people do. Especially older women.

You are free to cheerlead on the OP into risking her livelihood and potentially career when it has zero impact to your lives, being anonymous web site users. But I think OP deserve choices and that means a way to navigate the “training” without compromising her integrity or her job/career/livelihood.

The secondary sex characteristics are many.

The vagina is one because we can in fact create...

The vagina is a primary sex characteristic.

A neovagina is not a vagina, is not composed of the same tissue, does not perform the same functions, except for being able to penetrate it.

In addition, a uterus including cervix can and has been successfully implanted in transwomen- attaching it to the neovagina and linking into the pelvic circulatory system which is the same in men and women anyway.

This has never happened.

In addition, breasts are not just implanted but they have successfully given transwomen the right cocktail of hormones such that they can produce breast milk and breast feed.

Men can sometimes grow breast tissue without hormones.

Hormone therapy also eliminates male facial and body hair.

If this was true, there'd be no need for the NHS to provide transgender patients with laser hair removal treatments.

My aim in changing the OPs statement was to keep her out of trouble by giving her a statement of fact that is 100% irrefutable. I still think “biology” and “biologically” are too broad and open to counter arguments and thus accusations of transphobia.

Given your ignorance of biology, maybe it would be better to refrain from giving advice on the topic?

You are peddling tripe, dear.

And I doubt the OP is as simple minded as you seem to think!

I think the OP is on safe enough ground. If anyone wants to argue the toss, I would refer to the Sagan standard: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"

Not sure where you are getting your information from.

In addition, they have voice box surgery to create higher pitched female voice.

sure, can you link up the success rates? Because we know that the likelihood of scarring and creating issues is also very high.

In addition, breasts are not just implanted

yes, because all males have breast tissue already.

but they have successfully given transwomen the right cocktail of hormones such that they can produce breast milk and breast feed.

And the ethics of this is what? What reason exactly is there for an infant to be fed a cocktail of hormones so that a male can say they breastfed. And please link up the evidence that that infant grows and thrives fed on artifically and chemically induced laction that does not respond to the infants needs the way a mother's milk supply does.

Hormone therapy also eliminates male facial and body hair.

The hair on your body, including your chest, back and arms, will decrease in thickness and grow at a slower rate. But it may not go away all together, and some may choose to pursue electrolysis or laser treatment. Remember that all cisgender women also have some body hair. Your facial hair may thin a bit and grow slower but it will rarely go away entirely without electrolysis or laser treatments. If you have had any scalp balding, hormone therapy will usually stop it, however the extent to which it will grow back is variable.

transcare.ucsf.edu/article/information-estrogen-hormone-therapy

It's been a few weeks since I've logged on to FWR MN. Didn't know it morphed into a science fiction forum!

@ErrolTheDragon
I think you are wildly overestimating the probability - personally I doubt it's even a possibility.

That’s your opinion. But keep in mind, 75yrs ago we did not even know DNA existed.

My advice is based on how to express irrefutable fact without being pegged as a transphobic bigot and then sacked.

Maybe you need to look up the words irrefutable and fact. Your current usage suggests you understand them about as well as you understand biology

"I don’t think anyone should lose their job over this, but let’s face facts, people do. Especially older women.*

Ageist claptrap too! Did you just assume something?

The only reason anyone would lose their job over this is because gender ideology is dangerous, it's adherents are fanatics and actively seek out and target anyone who refuses to toe their anti science line.

Maybe you need to find them and tell them to play nice instead of chiding women and offering up crap science!

[quote EmpressCixi]@HoardingSamphireSaurus

It’s not pandering to an ideology to restrict statements to 100% irrefutable fact. I am actually ensuring the OP is closing a door...saying “biologically” is opening the door for her to be criticised and accused of transphobia because it is too vague and too broad given current capabilities in medicine. I am being nice, to the OP. She’s said she’s a middle aged woman about to undergo mandatory trans training at work. And we all know that training is code for flush out the nonbelievers. My advice is based on how to express irrefutable fact without being pegged as a transphobic bigot and then sacked. I don’t think anyone should lose their job over this, but let’s face facts, people do. Especially older women.

You are free to cheerlead on the OP into risking her livelihood and potentially career when it has zero impact to your lives, being anonymous web site users. But I think OP deserve choices and that means a way to navigate the “training” without compromising her integrity or her job/career/livelihood.[/quote]
It seems you are determined to spread misinformation for some reason of your own.

@Delphinium20

It's been a few weeks since I've logged on to FWR MN. Didn't know it morphed into a science fiction forum!

It really has.

Someone has beamed in to tell us wims that we are behind on the science.

DNA was discovered in 1869 by Swiss researcher Friedrich Miescher

You really do need to do some research before you spout such nonsense.

Wow. I hope there lots of lurkers reading the most recent posts on this thread!

@HoardingSamphireSaurus

I think we need receipts for this assertion...

In addition, a uterus including cervix can and has been successfully implanted in transwomen- attaching it to the neovagina and linking into the pelvic circulatory system which is the same in men and women anyway. We are only a few years from transwomen being able to get pregnant.

That will never happen. Even if we get to the point where that is remotely possible, hopefully somebody will intervene. That is in nobody's best interest

Babies are not an accessory to affirm anyone's gender aspirations

Only someone who wishes to cause harm to a group of people would persist in letting them believe that repurposed and replica body parts are 'like the authentic body parts of the opposite sex'.

I am really concerned when I see people perpetuate this nonsense. If doctors are saying that these body parts are anything but replicas, then each and every one of them needs to have their license revoked and to be sued with malpractice.

In addition, breasts are not just implanted but they have successfully given transwomen the right cocktail of hormones such that they can produce breast milk and breast feed.

Implants are just that - implants. They are not breast tissue. There is one case - one - of a transwoman being given a cocktail of drugs that enabled them to lactate. There is no evidence that this was used to breastfeed the baby.

Hormone therapy also eliminates male facial and body hair.

False. The only permanent way to eliminate facial and body hair is through laser treatment.

The vagina is one because we can in fact create...

False. The vagina is a muscular tube that self-cleaning and lined with mucosal tissue. It can stretch. The penis is skin. It does not have a mucosal lining and is not self-cleaning.

There are currently two main ways to create a pseudo-vagina: one is to use the existing genitalia or skin from the forearm but this method has its limitations as it is not self-cleaning, muscular or of mucosal tissue. When the skin is taken from the forearm, the hair must first be removed permanently. If this is not done, the pseudo-vagina grows hair.

The second main way is through the use of intestinal tissue. The disadvantage to this is that it smells of feces and retains intestinal bacteria.

The body views the pseudo-vagina as a wound that needs to be closed. Hence, the pseudo-vagina must be dilated daily, with the instruments being increased in size over time.

With regards to implanting - not transplanting - a cervix and uterus into transwomen. This is a lie. It has never been done. There have been a few cases of female-to-female uterine transplants.

The pelvic circulatory systems in men and women are different as they lead to different organs, such as the Fallopian tubes and ovaries in women. Transwomen do not have these organs.
Fail.

I had no idea that DNA was discovered that early.

There’s my new fact for the day

😃 every day is a learning day, happily.