If born male you biologically stay male until you die? Yes?

[daisiesonmydress]

Just that really. That's my understanding. No matter how you dress or what surgery you have?

And you can legally say this too?

So, EmpressCici, what distinguishes gender identity disorder/dysphoria from body integrity disorder/dysphoria? Should we allow perfectly healthy people to get bits of their bodies chopped off because they have a mental identity of being “transabled”? If not, what’s the difference?

Fabulous, @HaroldMeeker!

@FlyingOink

Sounds like misogyny to me, how dare you call a uterus “medical waste” that’s even worse than the “grow a baby in a bag” comments upthread. The uterus is the giver of life, not a bag and not medical waste.

You just said it was going in the bin

That doesn’t make it medical waste. Newborn babies are found in bins, does that make them medical waste too?

Thanks. Empress, you're my muse! Take a bow!!!!

@foxgoosefinch

So, EmpressCici, what distinguishes gender identity disorder/dysphoria from body integrity disorder/dysphoria? Should we allow perfectly healthy people to get bits of their bodies chopped off because they have a mental identity of being “transabled”? If not, what’s the difference?

Interesting topic, start a new thread.

[quote EmpressCixi]@RVN123
Let's just remember its YOU who thinks operations cannot be unethical if they are paid for and consent is given.

No, I don’t. You’re misquoting me. I asked “How can it be unethical if the person is consenting and paying for it”

And your answer was “Ethics has nothing to do with if the person is willing...”

You couldn’t answer my question could you? You really got egg on your face by saying consent and ethics have nothing to do with each other. So then you back track and say consent is “not the primary concern”

Oh, ignorance equaled only by arrogance.[/quote]
Oh yes.

Well, if I've got any egg on my face from this thread, you must be swimming in a fucking Olympic sized eggy swimming pool.

I think we can all see whose visage is covered in egg.

Broken Eggs ... pancakes anyone ?

All this are biological.

Using your weird definition a haircut is a biological change too.

ADJECTIVE [usually ADJECTIVE noun]
Biological is used to describe processes and states that occur in the bodies and cells of living things.
The living organisms somehow concentrated the minerals by biological processes.
This is a natural biological response.

Shorter hair length is therefore an altered biological state.

However

People say that someone is biologically male in relation to the entirety of his biological makeup, and being biologically male remains the case regardless of changes made to the body.

A soldier with his penis and testicles blown off is still a man.

You seem to think that given enough surgery the entirety of the body becomes not-male. You do this by treating the human body as if it were a Mr Potato Head doll. That's not how any of this works.

@RufustheFloralmissingreindeer

Sounds like misogyny to me, how dare you call a uterus “medical waste” that’s even worse than the “grow a baby in a bag” comments upthread. The uterus is the giver of life, not a bag and not medical waste

Look…people can read, you quoted someone upthead to prove your argument when everyone could see that the poster hadn’t said any such thing

And you started the ‘bin’ bit….and thats where it would go in the medical waste bin

All this talk of body parts going into the medical waste bin reminded me of this distasteful picture, used for marketing purposes on social media, if you please, by the breast surgeon in the picture.

Hey, Empress. You've admitted that a male recipient would mean removing more tissue from a female donor than a female recipient.

But didn't you also say trials of uterus donation were ongoing and it wasn't fair that male recipients were excluded?

So what about the donor in all this? You're going to tell women that they have to go through a riskier procedure and donate more of their bodies, in order to be fair to transwomen?

That doesn’t make it medical waste. Newborn babies are found in bins, does that make them medical waste too?

No they aren't, they'd handed to their mother.

And you were talking about an organ being removed that you said was going in the bin.

And again we have a poster who simply remains ignorant of how a female body monitors and controls a pregnancy.

It is not unusual. We have seen it before. A poster declaring that an entire control system that will monitor and nature a feotus to birth can be ripped out of a female and implanted in a male. … oh. Wait… no. Because some posters think all that a feotus needs is a uterus to grow in!!!!

Yes. My comments about growing a human being in a bag is fucking offensive!!! Growing a human being in a uterus connected to nothing is the same as a bag.

That is the point.

You honestly believe a baby will simply grow in a uterus with some injections!!!

That ALL a female is, is a vagina and a uterus?

Do you know anything about pregnancy at all?

Well they are hard done by aren't they ?

That doesn’t make it medical waste. Newborn babies are found in bins, does that make them medical waste too?

Oh good lord

[quote EmpressCixi]@RVN123
Let's just remember its YOU who thinks operations cannot be unethical if they are paid for and consent is given.

No, I don’t. You’re misquoting me. I asked “How can it be unethical if the person is consenting and paying for it”

And your answer was “Ethics has nothing to do with if the person is willing...”

You couldn’t answer my question could you? You really got egg on your face by saying consent and ethics have nothing to do with each other. So then you back track and say consent is “not the primary concern”

Oh, ignorance equaled only by arrogance.[/quote]
Oh my Lord! You are massively misrepresenting what the previous poster said.

There is case law establishing, for example, that someone who consents to being cannibalised for erotic purposes cannot in fact give consent (it’s a well established precedent in U.K. law that one cannot consent to actual bodily harm). You cannot be held to consent to your own murder or consent to rape (which of course is a logical impossibility).

There’s just one starting point in thinking about consent and ethics. Consent is not always considered consent for obvious ethical reasons. There are huge and complex issues around medical consent which you are completely ignoring.

I know rufus , it's quite revolting really

There are huge and complex issues around medical consent

I'm getting new eyes though. Green ones. It's in writing so it's legit

I saw that image ages ago but Glinner provides some information about the surgeon which is new to me.

^The man in the photograph is Dr Giancarlo McEvenue, formerly a surgeon at the McLean Clinic in Canada. This plastic surgery clinic promotes “top surgery”, ie the removal of healthy breasts, on social media in the same aspirational way other companies market handbags and artisan lager.

With an Instagram account full of photographs depicting joyful patients and slogans such as "Ready for a topless summer?!", mastectomies (or “Chest masculinization” as the website euphemistically describes them) are being sold as a fun lifestyle choice.^

Incidentally, Dr McEvenue is a paid consultant for Johnson & Johnson, a company which supplies products and services for just these types of surgeries.

@FlyingOink

There are huge and complex issues around medical consent

I'm getting new eyes though. Green ones. It's in writing so it's legit

They'll be in the post tomorrow. If I can find my way to the post office.

Empress, you knew quite well that RVN123 was trying to explain that medical ethics encompasses a lot more than "the patient said yes and offered me some money to do this".

The patient's assent is the first rung on a very long ladder!

@PurgatoryOfPotholes
So what about the donor in all this? You're going to tell women that they have to go through a riskier procedure and donate more of their bodies, in order to be fair to transwomen?

It’s not riskier. You’re making that up.

They'll be in the post tomorrow. If I can find my way to the post office.

I was expecting at least a motorcycle courier. Cheapskate.

Is it the first or last rung ?

Sorry but if you are born male or female, that is your option.

Interesting topic, start a new thread.

It’s relevant to this one, so why don’t you answer? They used to be considered companion disorders. So if it’s not ethical to chop and swap bits of the body with other people’s in Body Integrity Disorder, how come it is in Gender Dysphoria…? Or do you think there’s no difference? You’re the one who began talking about transplants of body parts, so I’m interested to hear your answer.