Disagreement with husband about trans debate

[HermioneKipper]

Had people around for dinner and somehow got on to the topic of women’s spaces, being gender critical, the current debate around JKR.

After they left was discussing further with my husband and it turns out he thinks my views are extreme and I’ve “gone too far.”

He agrees that trans women who haven’t had surgery have no place in women’s spaces but thinks that if they’ve had gender reassignment surgery then they should be allowed into women’s spaces and called women.

I disagree with this and think that people cannot change sex and no male born people should be allowed into women’s spaces under any circumstances.

He said he thinks I’m too radical and shouldn’t think this way about a marginalised group 😡

I can’t believe we disagree so fundamentally on this and I’m so upset about it.

@Waitwhat23

And 'food for thought'?

Do fuck off with that condescending bullshit.

I just thought it was ironic because there is nothing thought provoking at all in that post. Almost perversely so.

You are saying that trans women commit 90% of violent crimes? That's uh- bold I guess

No. Obviously not. That would be stupid.

Come on. You must know this. Commit almost all violent crime? Testicles? Rhymes with hen? Not women?

Sorry for my condescension, it was not in the spirit of the debate, I am genuinely sorry for being immature. However, it is interesting that you dismiss my claim with no reasoning of your own and essentially use my temporary lapse of temper to direct the focus away from all of your weak, hypocritical arguments. I understand that sharing a toilet with someone with a penis might be unsettling to you in a culture where women are taught to be wary of men, but the person has gone out of their way to try to become a part of your community and the likelyhood of her putting that image out, working on it for years of her life, simply to trick you is, I assure you, not as great as you fear. And probably no more likely than someone entering your private area anyway

@RepentMotherfucker

You are saying that trans women commit 90% of violent crimes? That's uh- bold I guess

No. Obviously not. That would be stupid.

Come on. You must know this. Commit almost all violent crime? Testicles? Rhymes with hen? Not women?

Oo i know! Men! Like- not women ahhaa I see you

You are saying that trans women commit 90% of violent crimes? That's uh- bold I guess

I would say more that you're not able to read the words that were written on the page in front of you. Read what's on the page. Not what you think is on the page.

Go on. Give it a try.

I understand that sharing a toilet with someone with a penis might be unsettling to you in a culture where women are taught to be wary of men

Oh look, more condescension.

There's many reasons women are wary of men, backed by evidence, research and crime rates. We're not 'taught' to be wary of men, we're killed, raped and abused by men in enormous numbers. 3 women a week on average are killed in the UK.

And for avoidance of doubt, I mean males, however they identify. And this is why self id is so, obviously, outrageously dangerous for women. How do we know which ones will harm us?

We can't.

I understand that sharing a toilet with someone with a penis might be unsettling to you in a culture where women are taught to be wary of men, but the person has gone out of their way to try to become a part of your community and the likelyhood of her putting that image out, working on it for years of her life, simply to trick you is, I assure you, not as great as you fear. And probably no more likely than someone entering your private area anyway

If this is supposed to be reassuring, and not incredibly creepy, you've missed it by a country mile

@Mothersisterlover

Sorry for my condescension, it was not in the spirit of the debate, I am genuinely sorry for being immature. However, it is interesting that you dismiss my claim with no reasoning of your own and essentially use my temporary lapse of temper to direct the focus away from all of your weak, hypocritical arguments. I understand that sharing a toilet with someone with a penis might be unsettling to you in a culture where women are taught to be wary of men, but the person has gone out of their way to try to become a part of your community and the likelyhood of her putting that image out, working on it for years of her life, simply to trick you is, I assure you, not as great as you fear. And probably no more likely than someone entering your private area anyway

FFS Can we just go all in now? Men aren't women.

We (women) don't care if some people with a penis really really want to be "part of our community".
They can't be. The won't be. They'll never be.

It really does not matter that most people with a penis are harmless bunnies that are fluffy as clouds.
Don't care.

No people with a penis in women's spaces. That's all, no matter what.

i love how openly transphobic this has become

@TInkyWlnky

You are saying that trans women commit 90% of violent crimes? That's uh- bold I guess

I would say more that you're not able to read the words that were written on the page in front of you. Read what's on the page. Not what you think is on the page.

Go on. Give it a try.

mmm. Unfortunately your own views have mislead you :/ My point is that trans women aren't men, so your statistic is almost as redundant as using "1/10000 people are hit by lightning" to argue your case. What percentage of trans-women commit violent crimes when going to the toilet was more the question I was asking, since that is a relevant statistic to argue your point (rather than an exaggerated and possibly false statistic about all violent crime everywhere with all men)

@ErynIsTrans

i love how openly transphobic this has become

If you see transphobia you should report it. Where is the transphobia?

@mothersisterlover

Do you have any awareness on why sex segregated spaces exist? Hint, it's not to #bekind.

My point is that trans women aren't men

define 'men' without saying the word 'identifies'

bet you a dollar you can't

@ErynIsTrans

i love how openly transphobic this has become

great example of why this nonsense will fizzle out eventually.

being able to tell what sex someone is isn't anything phobic, it's just being human

With that statement you are expressing a dislike of or prejudice against transsexual or transgender people. Not a specific case, but a blanket dislike of them all- in other words, transphobia.
If you are okay with that, then that's okay, but many people don't think that's fair of you

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

My point is that trans women aren't men

define 'men' without saying the word 'identifies'

bet you a dollar you can't

A person who defines themself base on a set of traits traditionally seen

Oops missclick haha, ruined the bombshell :(

A person who defines themself base on a set of traits traditionally seen

oh dear, this doesn't mean anything i'm afraid

please try again

@Mothersisterlover

With that statement you are expressing a dislike of or prejudice against transsexual or transgender people. Not a specific case, but a blanket dislike of them all- in other words, transphobia. If you are okay with that, then that's okay, but many people don't think that's fair of you

which statement? what bit about being able to tell what sex someone is says you don't like them?

i'm married for heaven's sake. i definitely like some men

A couple of new posters!!! Hooray! Can we have a bet for how long they stay before they get bored?

A person who defines themself base on a set of traits traditionally seen

That's risible nonsense that explains nothing, what traits traditionally seen where? when?

If you are going to try and make a point have the respect to make a serious, understandable, evidenced point.

[quote DeckardK]@mothersisterlover

Do you have any awareness on why sex segregated spaces exist? Hint, it's not to #bekind.[/quote]
Do you have any awareness on why sex segregated spaces exist? Hint, it's not to #bekind.

you're right! maybe we should begin to move towards gender-neutral bathrooms instead! Individual stalls to ensure that everyone whether cis or trans is separated.

Unfortunately this won't stop sexual assault cases, because it doesn't matter if you put a sign on the bathroom door saying no trans women, men who identify as men can still go in. theres no lock, theres no security guard. Instead of blaming innocent trans women, maybe we should address why there is so much rape and sexual assault, not just in bathrooms, but in general. And we should start believing women when they talk about their experiences, and teaching children what is and what isn't ok, (not just boys, but girls too)

@Mothersisterlover

Oops missclick haha, ruined the bombshell :(

Okok you guys are gonna hate this but the definition of man (n) in the English dictionary is "a human being of either sex; a person" or "an adult human male" but I know that's not what you wanted haha What about "a person who uses the traditionally ascribed masculine values of their region as the main basis for their personality and presentation". This applies the same to women of course, and non-binary people really

How do we tell the difference between the nice, genuine transwomen who just want to "pee in peace" and the not nice men who are claiming to be trans in order to access women's spaces?

My own teenage sons are lovely. Kind. Polite and I'm 99.9% certain they would never harm a woman (or another man.) So based on that they should also be allowed in the ladies yes?

For the record as its probably relevant. My rapist (who groomed, abused and raped me for years) told me it was a shame he couldn't volunteer at Brownies/Guides so he could always be with me. Likewise using ladies toilets.

I'm sure the vast majority of trans woman are lovely. As are the vast majority of men. But women still need, and deserve, single sex spaces.