Disagreement with husband about trans debate

[HermioneKipper]

Had people around for dinner and somehow got on to the topic of women’s spaces, being gender critical, the current debate around JKR.

After they left was discussing further with my husband and it turns out he thinks my views are extreme and I’ve “gone too far.”

He agrees that trans women who haven’t had surgery have no place in women’s spaces but thinks that if they’ve had gender reassignment surgery then they should be allowed into women’s spaces and called women.

I disagree with this and think that people cannot change sex and no male born people should be allowed into women’s spaces under any circumstances.

He said he thinks I’m too radical and shouldn’t think this way about a marginalised group 😡

I can’t believe we disagree so fundamentally on this and I’m so upset about it.

What I don’t understand is this wokebro stance that stands up for trans rights rides roughshod over women and girls rights like they are nothing. Like Tom Harwood. It’s like they have no idea of the issues that women and girls face in terms of violence/rape/assault/trauma even though those stats and information are widely available and constantly reinforced by women and women’s rights organisations. How can they look at women and girls and the stats around how many of us are harassed, assaulted, raped, abused, murdered, oppressed and still spout on about ‘cis’ privilege - I JUST DON’T GET IT!!!!! How can people even cope with Stewart Lee putting a woman who fights against FGM in his bin list simply because TRAs don’t like the word female WHEN FGM OCCURS BECAUSE THEY ARE FEMALE, ITS A SPECIFICALLY SEX BASED CRIME? How can men not KNOW they need to STFU about this because it doesn’t impact on them, they aren’t having to give up their spaces, and they are not the sex who goes through life having to face/cope with/manage/tailor their behaviour to avoid sexual abuse from men or being subjected to it and having to find a way to recover.

Sorry to shout I’m just starting to lose my mind with all this.

I also appreciate OPs DP is not doing all these things but it’s just the mentality of it all. They don’t have the first fucking clue about life as a girl or woman.

What I don’t understand is this wokebro stance that stands up for trans rights rides roughshod over women and girls rights like they are nothing.

I have had to point this out in extremely clear terms to male colleagues who just vaguely think they are 'being kind' to a marginalised group.

Its the women who pontificate about it that annoy me the most. I suppose I expect some men not to get it. However, decent, intelligent men with whom we may have chosen to have relationships, ought to put some effort into "getting it" in my opinion, even if it takes them a little while to get there.

Both of of your beliefs are founded in transphobia. You can call it "feminism" as much as you want, but as a feminist myself this isn't feminism. Trans women in bathrooms don't go around swinging their penises in peoples faces lmao, they go in, do their business and leave like everyone else. The same goes for all trans people. And lets say that you manage to make it illegal for trans people to go into their preferred bathroom, how are you going to police it? Will everyone have to show their birth certificates on entry? It is unreasonable and unnecessary. I'm not even going to get into surgery. By your logic, a trans man might have surgery, and now has a penis. If he is not allowed into the male bathroom, and has to go into the female one, there is still going to be a penis in your "women only" space. It's unavoidable, and you need to acknowledge it and move on, because at the end of the day it doesn't matter that much.

Have you read the thread? What do you think of the discussion? Are you aware that the points you have raised have been answered? What did you think of those answers?

Are you entirely clear that you understand the word 'feminism' because from this post it looks like you don't.

how are you going to police it? Will everyone have to show their birth certificates on entry?

Why are you assuming trans people would need policing? Couldn't they just behave themselves?

What if there were lots of examples of TW who had actually swung their dicks in women's faces? (Spoiler, there are) Would that change your view?

Trans women in bathrooms don't go around swinging their penises in peoples faces lmao, they go in, do their business and leave like everyone else. The same goes for all trans people.

There's a prior in the loos filming themselves.
There's others in the loos cheering they made cis people uncomfortable.
There's some in loos for many reasons other than taking a shit.

It's unavoidable, and you need to acknowledge it and move on, because at the end of the day it doesn't matter that much.

Doesn't this just wrap up this whole 'debate' into a single sentence? 'We'll do what we want and we don't give a fuck about your feelings or concerns'

Women -

Your feelings don't matter
Your concerns don't matter
The actual instances where women have been harmed don't matter

There seem to be an idea (insistence or threat is really a better way of describing it) that women give in and just allow their single sex spaces to be eradicated.

No.

@HipTightOnions

how are you going to police it? Will everyone have to show their birth certificates on entry?

Why are you assuming trans people would need policing? Couldn't they just behave themselves?

Sorry, it seems you misread the original, they were rhetorically asking how to police it if it were illegal (to emphasize that it is a deeply impractical measure, and as you point out, not giving TW/TM the trust they deserve). The point here is that TW don't need policing at all and should be able to use whichever restroom conveniences them :) if other users are made legitimately uncomfortable then an individual report will be made just as it would with a pervert of any gender alignment, not a ban on all TW!

@Waitwhat23

It's unavoidable, and you need to acknowledge it and move on, because at the end of the day it doesn't matter that much.

Doesn't this just wrap up this whole 'debate' into a single sentence? 'We'll do what we want and we don't give a fuck about your feelings or concerns'

Women -

Your feelings don't matter
Your concerns don't matter
The actual instances where women have been harmed don't matter

There seem to be an idea (insistence or threat is really a better way of describing it) that women give in and just allow their single sex spaces to be eradicated.

No.

Ahah you seem to misunderstand, the spaces are still single gendered spaces :) the only reason a woman should feel threatened by a trans-woman is if they are a transphobe or in an individual case which as I previously mentioned would be dealt with separately. Your whole argument is based on the belief that trans-woman are not women and should be discriminated against for that reason. This is widely considered as an ignorant view in society, however I believe that you can educate yourself! Good luck :)

@RepentMotherfucker Feminism is advocating for equality. This includes the equality of trans people, and therefore this isn't feminism.

@Mothersisterlover assuming this is not a clever satirical post, you have entirely misread the original. The 'how would it be policed' comments come as a result of a previous post of mine which addressed a claim that people with a GRC were legally allowed to access single sex spaces as they have 'changed their sex'.

My post read - Even for those with a GRC, there are single sex exemptions in the Equality Act which allow single sex services to legally exclude them due to their sex, not the changed sex noted on documents -
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/16/20/7

'739.This paragraph contains an exception to the general prohibition of gender reassignment discrimination in relation to the provision of separate- and single-sex services. Such treatment by a provider has to be objectively justified.'

Examples of such services are given and include cervical screening and rape crisis services.

This is also allowable under the Occupational exemptions with examples of services given- www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/16/26/1

There's always talk of contravening human rights and genital inspections but the law as it stands allows for single sex spaces.

The answer to this post was by Redlake who posted 'still impossible to police effectively'.

I then asked why we should not be wary of people deliberately accessing spaces (not just toilets as is tiresomely focused on by TRA's but rape crisis centres etc too) from which they are legally excluded due to their sex.

Like it or not, humans cannot change sex, the GRC is a legal fiction and even those with GRCs are not entitled to access specific single sex spaces.

@RepentMotherfucker

What if there were lots of examples of TW who had actually swung their dicks in women's faces? (Spoiler, there are) Would that change your view?

Unfortunately there are many cases of criminals in any group! It doesn't change my view of women that there are many many serial killers and rapists among them, and thusly neither does it affect my opinion of trans rights that there are inconsiderate and potentially dangerous people among them :( toxic, horrible people can be found anywhere, that's not an excuse to ban Mumsnet just because there are so many people who are transphobic! If I were to take this comment section as a gauge then I might have to shut down Mumsnet as a whole which would deprive so many people of crochet patterns 😂😂😂

Well. My type of feminism is about liberating females and females only. I also tend to be egalitarian in that I believe generally people should be equal. However, my departure from that is that I also believe that there are mechanisms that need to assist females to achieve equality due to their sexed bodies (ie, these will need to be in place for ever probably due to pregnancy and having children etc).

So, let's call that movement equality for all what it is 'allmanism'.

Feminism = female centred
'Allmanism' = equality for all and not centred on females only.

Because feminists are not everyone's mother and we are not responsible for looking after everyone else's interests above our own. Despite what the UN Women marketing team think.

Strange that all of a sudden we have a couple of visitors - looks like the bat signal has gone out

*toxic, horrible people can be found anywhere, that's not an excuse to ban Mumsnet just because there are so many people who are transphobic!
If I were to take this comment section as a gauge then I might have to shut down Mumsnet as a whole which would deprive so many people of crochet patterns

[quote ErynIsTrans]@RepentMotherfucker Feminism is advocating for equality. This includes the equality of trans people, and therefore this isn't feminism.[/quote]
Yeah I knew you hadn't understood. That's OK - it's a common mistake this 'eminism is about equality for all' thing.

Feminism is about women. Adult Human Females.

HTH.

[quote Waitwhat23]@Mothersisterlover assuming this is not a clever satirical post, you have entirely misread the original. The 'how would it be policed' comments come as a result of a previous post of mine which addressed a claim that people with a GRC were legally allowed to access single sex spaces as they have 'changed their sex'.

My post read - Even for those with a GRC, there are single sex exemptions in the Equality Act which allow single sex services to legally exclude them due to their sex, not the changed sex noted on documents -
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/16/20/7

'739.This paragraph contains an exception to the general prohibition of gender reassignment discrimination in relation to the provision of separate- and single-sex services. Such treatment by a provider has to be objectively justified.'

Examples of such services are given and include cervical screening and rape crisis services.

This is also allowable under the Occupational exemptions with examples of services given- www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/16/26/1

There's always talk of contravening human rights and genital inspections but the law as it stands allows for single sex spaces.

The answer to this post was by Redlake who posted 'still impossible to police effectively'.

I then asked why we should not be wary of people deliberately accessing spaces (not just toilets as is tiresomely focused on by TRA's but rape crisis centres etc too) from which they are legally excluded due to their sex.

Like it or not, humans cannot change sex, the GRC is a legal fiction and even those with GRCs are not entitled to access specific single sex spaces.[/quote]
Sorry, I worded myself poorly, you must have misunderstood me, but it is nothing! All I'm saying is that trans women should be classified as women! Are you a woman yourself? Maybe you shouldn't be advocating for bigotted legislation to be iron-fast then, no? Food for thought.

Ahah you seem to misunderstand, the spaces are still single gendered spaces smile

Single sex spaces. Gender is not the same as sex. Do you not understand this? You need to educate yourself.

the only reason a woman should feel threatened by a trans-woman is if they are a transphobe

No, its because they are male. No males should be in women's single sex spaces.

Your whole argument is based on the belief that trans-woman are not women

They're not women. They wouldn't be trans if they were. Did you ever do biology? There's plenty of reputable resources online for you to educate yourself if not.

This is widely considered as an ignorant view in society

Not widely considered. But it may seem like that if you live in a twitter echo chamber. The cry of ignorance is such a boring old trope. Overused. To hide a lack of knowledge by the accuser.

however I believe that you can educate yourself! Good luck smile

I believe that education is something that would actually benefit you greatly. Do let me know if I can point you in the direction of actual facts, rather than dreams.

Unfortunately there are many cases of criminals in any group!

What if there were two (very distinct) groups of people and one committed 90%+ of the violent and sexual crimes and the other didn't but did suffer greatly from those crimes? Would if make sense to keep some spaces for that second group?

I think it would. You don't. I can only assume that's because you are either stupid or psychopathic. I was trying to think of another reason but couldn't.

That's fine. You get on with shutting down MN. Let us know when you're done and we can turn the lights out.

The attempted condensation of your posts, coupled with a complete lack of knowledge about the law is striking.

The Equality Act 2010 has 9 protected characteristics, including sex. And that means sex, not gender.

Transwomen are male. That's a fact. So are not eligible to access single sex spaces reserved for the safety and dignity of females.

I consider your comments to be bigoted agains the needs, feelings and reality faced by women. I also consider the phrase 'educate yourself' to be deeply condescending, used deliberately so.

And 'food for thought'?

Do fuck off with that condescending bullshit.

@RepentMotherfucker

Unfortunately there are many cases of criminals in any group!

What if there were two (very distinct) groups of people and one committed 90%+ of the violent and sexual crimes and the other didn't but did suffer greatly from those crimes? Would if make sense to keep some spaces for that second group?

I think it would. You don't. I can only assume that's because you are either stupid or psychopathic. I was trying to think of another reason but couldn't.

That's fine. You get on with shutting down MN. Let us know when you're done and we can turn the lights out.

You are saying that trans women commit 90% of violent crimes? That's uh- bold I guess