Disagreement with husband about trans debate

[HermioneKipper]

Had people around for dinner and somehow got on to the topic of women’s spaces, being gender critical, the current debate around JKR.

After they left was discussing further with my husband and it turns out he thinks my views are extreme and I’ve “gone too far.”

He agrees that trans women who haven’t had surgery have no place in women’s spaces but thinks that if they’ve had gender reassignment surgery then they should be allowed into women’s spaces and called women.

I disagree with this and think that people cannot change sex and no male born people should be allowed into women’s spaces under any circumstances.

He said he thinks I’m too radical and shouldn’t think this way about a marginalised group 😡

I can’t believe we disagree so fundamentally on this and I’m so upset about it.

along 'with' no tone indicators.

Sorry.

You forgot to add /suspicious

Or some other equally pointless, self aggrandising twonkery.

It's all in a days work I suppose. Chastising naughty women who insist on having a material reality that exclued me me me me me

/not at all manipulative no siree

I am all for having honest discussion. But I do not respond well at all to even subtle manipulation - tone policing, topic policing included.

Yes, it's infantilising. A bit like living in a play - all those stage notes, exit left pursued by a bear etc.

50% of the transwomen in both the UK and US prison systems are sex offenders.

so either

1) transwomen are massively more likely to be sex offenders than your average man

or

2) men who are sex offenders are identifying as transwomen

which is it?

Did @ErynIsTrans, or anyone who shared their beliefs, answer this? Sorry if I missed it.

It would be genuinely so refreshing if someone who believes trans women should have equal access to single sex spaces answered it as I've never seen them do so.

It's data based and it's vital in a serious debate that people engage with statistical evidence.

Don't be silly lynn (may I call you lynn?), posters like ErynisTrans don't see questions like that /notsarcasticatall

It would be genuinely so refreshing if someone who believes trans women should have equal access to single sex spaces answered it as I've never seen them do so.

It's data based and it's vital in a serious debate that people engage with statistical evidence.

I asked someone who chipped me for mentioning the old study yesterday. They said the study was old and not really useful. They then said that the stats are unreliable because there are some males gaming the system.

They did NOT come back with any segregated data that separated real and not real trans people. They did not answer my suggestion as to campaigning to have these real trans stats pull out from the 'not real' trans people. I also asked them to tell us how we, personally, can tell the difference now that we have been told that 'acceptance without exception' is the rule.

nada.

Interesting how 'acceptance without exception' is a rule - but something that must be given to the demander of it, without reciprocation.

One never sees these things modelled back to others for example. Like accepting without exception that people have different styles of posting. Or different beliefs. It seems to be an idea of there being takers with no responsibility, and givers who are doing it all wrong, are shamefully lacking for not just magically knowing and doing better, and need to give, now, immediately, or else.

It's all rather reminiscent of parenting a toddler. Except you patiently teach a toddler that no, this doesn't win friends and influence people well, and they move on.

@Helleofabore, thinking about the stats, is there a clear distinction between real trans and pretend trans?
If no one is born trans and it's based on conscious choice and is subject to change (for some through the day), where is the dividing line or test to know a man is really thinking that he feels like a women, or a man pretends to feel like a woman?

Neither is actually possible unless you were conceived female and any 'femaleness' test could be failed by women who aren't typical women.

I'm struggling with this as I would likely fall into a neurodivergent category which struggles with grey areas when science shows facts.

I know people aren't binary because they cannot be two, they are male or female. Eryn's /@/$ tone iritates me, in the same that the line "I don't mean to be rude, but...(rude comment)" irritates me. Information is provided that I may or may not agree with and I'm told how to interpret it as though my interpretation will not be valid.

@youvegottenminuteslynn

50% of the transwomen in both the UK and US prison systems are sex offenders.

so either

1) transwomen are massively more likely to be sex offenders than your average man

or

2) men who are sex offenders are identifying as transwomen

which is it?

Did @ErynIsTrans, or anyone who shared their beliefs, answer this? Sorry if I missed it.

It would be genuinely so refreshing if someone who believes trans women should have equal access to single sex spaces answered it as I've never seen them do so.

It's data based and it's vital in a serious debate that people engage with statistical evidence.

@ErynIsTrans @Mothersisterlover ?

is there a clear distinction between real trans and pretend trans?

Of course not. The outcome of including so many identities under the trans umbrella was to increase the numbers to increase the power of the group's voice. It meant that when they all insisted that statistics reflected only gender, never sex, that they have become hoist by their own petard in a way.

They really left themselves open to this uncertainty. But just saying there is uncertainty as to whether it is 'true' trans or not committing the crimes also temporarily hides the fact that it COULD all be true. Because who is the arbiter of transness? And the numbers could still indicate that transitioned males (who some may label as 'true' trans) STILL commit these crimes at a similar rate of other males.

It could be said that the disaggregation of 'true' and 'not true' will not prove to be as favourable as activists vehemently wish.

It is quite eye opening to see the number of transitioned males distance themselves from the other identities under the umbrella, though. It seems that the success of increasing their political power has meant the original group now feels more marginalised because they no longer feel safe, from their own group, to speak.

Therefore, it is very transphobic in the view of the extreme activists to even suggest there are 'real trans' people vs 'pretend trans' people. Acceptance without exception is the rule!!! Yet, I see allies and other trans people use this terminology ("real trans") more and more regularly now.

Maybe Eryn can counter that and tell us if and how the distinction can be done though.

@ErynIsTrans, helle has tried to answer my question as she raised the language 'real trans' as this is now being used and I wanted to understand what this means, but her answer raises another question.

It sounds as though trans people don't know if others are genuine trans or not, but I wonder if this is correct?

And thanks @Helleofabore as that has opened my mind even more.

Are we allowed to say "real trans" and "pretend trans" now? That was a deletable/bannable offence at one point.

I thought every person who said they were trans was trans, no matter what. Of course, all trans people were also nice. So if a person wasn't nice, they weren't trans. Not just pretend trans, but not trans at all. It's very simple really.

So the likes of Karen White isn't and never was trans. Similarly detransitioners didn't detransition, they were never trans in the first place. The fact that they said they were trans therefore they were trans at the time they were trans is irrelevant

It's all perfectly clear as mud

I had a disagreement with one of my oldest and best friends about trans issues today. Obviously I think my opinion is right, but I accidentally offended her and even though I apologised at the time I feel so crap about it. (I have severe depression and anxiety so get disproportionately upset sometimes)
Sorry. I don't have anyone I can talk to about it in real life :(

I thought Karen said she was trans, so is definitely trans as trans is self declared and being a rapist doesn't impact on this.

Following my learning on here I can see some trans would want to say that they are more genuine and therefore 'real trans'. Of course if Karen says she's 'real trans', then 'real trans' people will need another option, possibly 'really real trans'?

It's this language I'm struggling with. It's confusing, I know what I am, an adult human female aka women, but forms ask me to identify a gender.

How do I selfD as an actual woman if the word woman includes men?

@CiaoForDiNiaoSaur

I had a disagreement with one of my oldest and best friends about trans issues today. Obviously I think my opinion is right, but I accidentally offended her and even though I apologised at the time I feel so crap about it. (I have severe depression and anxiety so get disproportionately upset sometimes) Sorry. I don't have anyone I can talk to about it in real life :(

I have been there. Recently though I have noticed that she seems far less sure about her side of history. She has a lot of gay male friends and I suspect they have recently been more 'WTF' and she is following suit.

So hang in there. The tide is on the turn. And in the meantime.

Goodness knows what people with other conditions make of it, like the people with dyslexia

Behold. A dyslexic as fuck person has arrived to so share a badly spelled opinion. (I.e. me)

The faux code speak is doing my biscuit in. Totally throws off my ability to track a line of text. I hate it and it is excluding me from this debate #notallneurodiversepeople

/gen/(ish)

@RepentMotherfucker thanks. I'm not sure her opinion will change. Her spouse (born female) identifies as Agender - I'm using the words they use because I'm respectful like that. I said that said spouse was biologically female and friend said she isn't. Then something about there being more than 2 types of chromosome so just because someone is AFAB doesn't mean they are female.
I think it's going to have to become an undiscussed topic between us.

@Enough4me

I thought Karen said she was trans, so is definitely trans as trans is self declared and being a rapist doesn't impact on this.

Following my learning on here I can see some trans would want to say that they are more genuine and therefore 'real trans'. Of course if Karen says she's 'real trans', then 'real trans' people will need another option, possibly 'really real trans'?

It's this language I'm struggling with. It's confusing, I know what I am, an adult human female aka women, but forms ask me to identify a gender.

How do I selfD as an actual woman if the word woman includes men?

All of this.

KW illustrates the central issue here (and is not the 'isolated case' they are often dismissed as).

Either KW is not truly trans - in which case KW demonstrates that there is no way to know which male person is truly trans and which isn't and will use access to female spaces to harm females,

or KW is truly trans - in which case KW demonstrates that some TW are sex offenders and predators who will and do use the access to female spaces to harm females.

It raises a number of important questions. Is being trans incompatible with being a sex offender? Does that mean a sex offense committed mean that the person never was actually trans - in which case is trans something only non sex offending males are allowed to do? A privilege remitted if they offend? Because that to me seems wrong and deeply unfair.

Or do the political lobby have to face and own that any male may identify as a TW, there will inevitably be TW who will be sex offenders and use their access to female spaces to offend, and females cannot be expected to just deal with this as part of life's rich pattern - it's part of why females have single sex spaces. And since the safe TW cannot be separated from the TW who present a risk until after a female has been hurt - in the same way no other male person can - this means third spaces are required if TW prefer not to use male spaces, facilities and resources. And females who use mixed sex spaces consent to that risk.

And that's setting aside the huge additional issue that even if every single TW was proven not to be a risk to women, many women would still be excluded from their own space by the presence of someone who is male. And the first job of a female resource, facility or service is to be inclusive to all females.

TurquoiseBaubles

I have seen some trans people use this on Mn. And allies as well. I was surprised to see it.

[quote CiaoForDiNiaoSaur]@RepentMotherfucker thanks. I'm not sure her opinion will change. Her spouse (born female) identifies as Agender - I'm using the words they use because I'm respectful like that. I said that said spouse was biologically female and friend said she isn't. Then something about there being more than 2 types of chromosome so just because someone is AFAB doesn't mean they are female.
I think it's going to have to become an undiscussed topic between us.[/quote]
Gosh. What can you even do with that? I respect people for forming their own views on gender identity but to be chastised that we don’t understand the science on sex is difficult to get past. That’s some shaky moral high ground she’s standing on there.

That’s some shaky moral high ground she’s standing on there.

Even shakier scientific ground, as well as being incredibly ableist by using others medical conditions to imply that they are some kind of third sex.

CiaoForDiNiaoSaur, I've been there too. Funnily enough after the last two years everyone I know has now gone wtf and we can resume normal communication.

As far as I know there is no chromosomal combination that makes anyone agender. However, when it comes to agender meaning "doesn't have a gender" that describes pretty much everyone I know.

I'd avoid the subject, but if you are pushed ask for an explanation of agender. That will lead them down a rabbit hole, at which point just down another glass of wine