Disagreement with husband about trans debate

[HermioneKipper]

Had people around for dinner and somehow got on to the topic of women’s spaces, being gender critical, the current debate around JKR.

After they left was discussing further with my husband and it turns out he thinks my views are extreme and I’ve “gone too far.”

He agrees that trans women who haven’t had surgery have no place in women’s spaces but thinks that if they’ve had gender reassignment surgery then they should be allowed into women’s spaces and called women.

I disagree with this and think that people cannot change sex and no male born people should be allowed into women’s spaces under any circumstances.

He said he thinks I’m too radical and shouldn’t think this way about a marginalised group 😡

I can’t believe we disagree so fundamentally on this and I’m so upset about it.

Mind blown again, I can now see I can identify as agender as I don't have a gender and think gender is based on stereotypes not science.

I was surprised to find out recently that despite being heterosexual with DC, I can identify as queer if I want to without doing anything. It seems the thing bored actresses have started.

I can be queer agender.
I must be missing a gap with language again, the new 'evolved' language cannot be this bizarre flexible?

It's pretty much always like this.

• Why are YOU (small bunch of women chatting away corner of internet) excluding ME?

• It's about groups of people. What having so many things go self ID, or self id with a seemingly rubbish assessment process, means for female human juveniles and adults. It's not personal. It's not about YOU. It's about impact across the board, millions of people.

• But what you think ignores the fact there are lovely harmless people like me out there. What's the problem with me? Why exclude me from single sex anything?

• Not to do with you. Sure you are lovely. However this is across whole populations. Laws and considerations and risks and other reasons for the limited number of single sex things for women/girls. (And men/boys don't want female people in with them in those situations).

Obviously case by case is impossible logistically and practically and from time/cost approach. Plus what criteria? Should be- could any female at any point for any reason feel uncomfy/upset/ scared/ wary/ embarrassed/ confused/ totally unable at all to be in any space designated women's/ladies/ female, if a male is there. And fooling her does not make it ok (and is very very rare).

• (ignores the above)... This is my history, when I realised, difficulties a lot. My transition process was xyz. I am currently in ABC relationship. It's been tough, all I want is to live my life quietly as a woman. What have I done that means I shouldn't access the things for women?

• Sounds vv hard. Really sorry for those things that you experienced (Note posters always comment to posts about having a bad time and always express sympathy. And it's obviously genuine.

However at this point, now it's gone so far. A blanket approach is the only way. The demands in last few years have screwed plenty trans people over, that's not our fault. Groups. Feel sympathetic but no other approach will work now.

Then usually goes downhill.

It's fascinating one you notice, how posters here to put trans points to us. Majority trans themselves occasionally trans loved one.

I'd say 95% of the time their arguments etc are about them. Why so mean to ME? Not even the group of trans people with similar experiences/transition changes etc. Just one person, themselves.

There is essentially zero point having one approach thinking of groups, population level. And the other approach in the discussion thinking at individual level and individual is them.

Why when we get posters come to discuss sex/gender on this board, is it pretty much always a person making the case for themselves?

Random thought. Vv could be way off for sure!

I'm sure many of us on here are aware/ have experienced the 'everyone's mum/mum figure' type thing.

Women in general irl are often expected to do things that are sort of female stereotypes + stereotypes about mums iyswim. Usually as so common nobody involved thinks twice. And age or whether have kids beside the point.

It's a bit part of the underlying reason this site gets so much attention.

Shock when posters here have un-mumsy views. Or in fact any views which aren't to do with what mums should think about.

The reason for the derision, outrage, discomfort. Sometimes rage.
At not being docile, fluffy, people pleasing, caring, selfless, kind women as mums are supposed to be.

Thinking on.. Stacks of men and boys are vvv attached to, devoted to their mums. (Not saying anything wrong with that except when causes probs for others!).

And stacks of mums dote on their boys. Favour them, shower praise, ignore poor behaviour, worry about, look after even when son in 40s etc. Again I'm sure they don't realise that, subconscious.

Here on Mumsnet, mum types expected.

I wonder if that's why males come here sometimes esp to Feminism. Looking for reassurance, forgiveness, comfort etc.

I'm thinking of the ones who post on threads about prostitution whose posts are clear that they pay for sex but for them it's a need, they're lovely people, respect the women etc.

And posters on this topic who are posting to say how they are different. After all this, surely you will agree I'm ok? All I want is kindness, understanding. Surely you won't be so uncaring? You must see that I personally deserve acceptance, kindness, care?

Dunno. Could be way off mark.

If am. Why always the same pattern of posts?

Enough4me

Unfortunately that's not how the rules work.

1. Agender indicates a belief in internal gender and furthermore a general acceptance and support for gender > sex.

1. If you think sex matters you are cis. That's that. If you live in countries like China, India, Afghanistan then everyone is 'cis'. Even though that indicates that having a trans ID is not a deeply known fundamental characteristic known from when vv young.

1. If you are transsexual and therefore indisputably trans and you don't agree gender > sex. Then you are as awful as women who think that. Truscum (not sure if still used). Desperate for cis acceptance. Deep seated transphobia. An unenlightened dangerous Fool.

1. Gender identities must be respected. Unless they are declared by certain groups of women. Then it's aok to tell them their gender, or assume it.

1. Being agender is very rare. This is a fact because of...

>> I've never seen anything to support this at all. I think it went like this irl years ago. Trans people with dysphoria/ who are transsexual have (obviously!) a very strongly felt sense of gender ID. therefore... (Here's a leap...) This is the case across the board, a fact of humans, how brains work, a deeply known and essentially universal fact. It follows that being agender is very unusual.

1. Anyone who says they have no gender id, well women who say that. And think sex important. They're either too at home with their role as feminine. Or they're lying. They're cis. That's that.

In short.

Say whatever gender you fancy.
What you say will be ignored.
As it will for the vast majority of anyone who doesn't fit the transgender mould.
Esp if woman who is not young, and not spending 90% of time talking about it and posting online etc.

I mean it's all rubbish.

It's just men telling us what we are as always have done.

@CheeseMmmm thanks for trying to help me out, but I'm still finding the language confusing.

Does agender mean has no defined gender (genderless) or is it a defined gender, as far as gender is defined by those who believe in them?

Where is a baby's gender when it's conceived / born?

I don't know how it appears, is it just personality?

I'd say 95% of the time their arguments etc are about them. Why so mean to ME? Not even the group of trans people with similar experiences/transition changes etc. Just one person, themselves.

This.

To which my reply is: 'the answer to your challenges cannot be to remove rights, equality and access from everyone biologically female. That is not an option. Your needs must be met in a different way, with a solution that works for all. That's inclusion.'

[quote Enough4me]@CheeseMmmm thanks for trying to help me out, but I'm still finding the language confusing.

Does agender mean has no defined gender (genderless) or is it a defined gender, as far as gender is defined by those who believe in them?

Where is a baby's gender when it's conceived / born?

I don't know how it appears, is it just personality?[/quote]
I'd say that (personal view)-

Some people obv have an internal conviction that they need to change their sex. A hatred of their sexed body, I imagine combined with a personality that is very far from the sexed roles in society.

The first is can be very severe in impact on the person. Severe depression, self harm, suicidal thoughts/ intent.

Same area as people who look in the mirror and see a very overweight person when they are seriously underweight, it's a psychological issue and can be vv dangerous.

This would be the 'old school' transsexuals. Surgery to cosmetically alter body appearance to look like opposite sex as much as poss I think was last resort if nothing else worked.

(Anyone who can correct if wrong please do. I looked up sex dysmorphia /dysphoria (never sure which right) and found NOTHING on first couple pages Google. It's all gender dysphoria which we all know is a massive range of things many of which no issues with sexed body.
I find this worrying tbh.
NHS it's not on mental health list, gender dysphoria not there but separate presumably because as we all know it's not a MH condition these days...)

Second is just the standard discomfort/hatred etc with narrow sex roles, or simple not confirming to all (IE you're not Barbie or gi Joe).

Aka personality as you mention.

As for the labels for gender don't bother pondering on it.

Transgender list includes agender (no feeling that you have a gender inside. Usually defined as very strongly felt).

Agender is part of trans community.

I don't have a feeling of gender inside.
I have no desire to label myself as trans. Because I don't believe, and I've never seen evidence. That apart from a small number people who are very distressed by their sexed bodies and desperate for it to look like other sex. That many people at all have this feeling.
That vast majority of people do is a HUGE random unsupported statement and it's one that underpins the whole transgender philosophy.
No trans org will want it studied ever. Because the results I'm sure would pull out one of the main foundations.

You can Google for identity lists.

Here's one, scroll down for a list of some of the gender identities that have been defined.

www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/types-of-gender-identity

@Whatwouldscullydo

Urgh

I'm.so sick.of this marginalised group nonsense.

Since when were heterosexual white males ( which are a large proportion ofnthide whi claim to be trans ) marginalised.

Do they not see they have been conned into believing this

Me too. Enough. They are not more marginalised than children or disabled people - mentally or physically. Saying they have it worse than women. Where's the evidence for that?

It irritates me so much even I hear that they are the 'most oppressed group. Unbelievably self centred, some people need to step out of their little bubble.

Try going for a job at your local Kwik Fit as a trans woman and see where that gets you

This is not the most oppressed group in society, like we're frequently told.

Try being mentally ill in a psychiatric ward with no family to be your voice

The being a child locked with their violent parent with no knowledge of the outside world or how to get help

Try living with life coiled in syndrome or paralysis and not being able to do anything or even communicate efficiently

Not the most oppressed group in society

Ask you DH if he would honestly consider a transwoman who has undergone full surgery as a prospective romantic or sexusl partner for himself, without any prejudice? Would he honestly consider a transwoman as exactly the same as any other woman in this context? If not, why should we accept them in our changing rooms and prisons?