Disagreement with husband about trans debate

[HermioneKipper]

Had people around for dinner and somehow got on to the topic of women’s spaces, being gender critical, the current debate around JKR.

After they left was discussing further with my husband and it turns out he thinks my views are extreme and I’ve “gone too far.”

He agrees that trans women who haven’t had surgery have no place in women’s spaces but thinks that if they’ve had gender reassignment surgery then they should be allowed into women’s spaces and called women.

I disagree with this and think that people cannot change sex and no male born people should be allowed into women’s spaces under any circumstances.

He said he thinks I’m too radical and shouldn’t think this way about a marginalised group 😡

I can’t believe we disagree so fundamentally on this and I’m so upset about it.

@RepentMotherfucker

I understand that sharing a toilet with someone with a penis might be unsettling to you in a culture where women are taught to be wary of men, but the person has gone out of their way to try to become a part of your community and the likelyhood of her putting that image out, working on it for years of her life, simply to trick you is, I assure you, not as great as you fear. And probably no more likely than someone entering your private area anyway

If this is supposed to be reassuring, and not incredibly creepy, you've missed it by a country mile

Maybe you'll come to understand, maybe you won't :/ I hope you do because why wouldn't you, in my opinion of course

And we should start believing women when they talk about their experiences, and teaching children what is and what isn't ok, (not just boys, but girls too)

Agree with this 100%. For example, when girls say they don't want to share changing rooms and bathrooms with boys, we should definitely listen to them. And when women talk about their experiences of needing privacy and dignity away from males in spaces like changing rooms, gyms, bathrooms etc, we should listen to them too. We should listen to women in prison who are terrified of males being put in their cells with them. We should listen to the women whose husbands abused and abandoned them in order to pursue their midlife transitions. And of course it goes without saying we should listen to the female athletes who are having their sports titles and opportunities stolen from them by mediocre, entitled males.

I'm so glad you agree.

Well if standing up against the misogynists make for transphobia then so be it.
It’s a foolish woman who rolls over to misogyny to avoid today’s slurs.

Woah there, I'm not misogynistic. I have lost friends over their misogyny against me and my female friends. And since you are hating on women, that makes many of these people in this thread misogynistic themselves. I am standing up for those women and doing my best. I am a feminist.

Okok you guys are gonna hate this but the definition of man (n) in the English dictionary is "a human being of either sex; a person" or "an adult human male" but I know that's not what you wanted haha
What about "a person who uses the traditionally ascribed masculine values of their region as the main basis for their personality and presentation". This applies the same to women of course, and non-binary people really

Did you check the definition of woman in the OED?

@ErynIsTrans

Unfortunately this won't stop sexual assault cases, because it doesn't matter if you put a sign on the bathroom door saying no trans women, men who identify as men can still go in. theres no lock, theres no security guard. Instead of blaming innocent trans women, maybe we should address why there is so much rape and sexual assault, not just in bathrooms, but in general. And we should start believing women when they talk about their experiences, and teaching children what is and what isn't ok, (not just boys, but girls too)

Do you think male crimes against women decreased or increased once sex segregated scales were introduced?

Do you think Trans women do not commit these same crimes against women?

@Mothersisterlover

With that statement you are expressing a dislike of or prejudice against transsexual or transgender people. Not a specific case, but a blanket dislike of them all- in other words, transphobia. If you are okay with that, then that's okay, but many people don't think that's fair of you

Would be a lot easier if you would quote or name posters

Ive no idea what statement you are on about

Okok you guys are gonna hate this but the definition of man (n) in the English dictionary is "a human being of either sex; a person"

you're going with the sexist definition of 'man as default human'? okey dokey

or "an adult human male" but I know that's not what you wanted haha

that's precisely what I wanted and precisely what a transwoman is

What about "a person who uses the traditionally ascribed masculine values of their region as the main basis for their personality and presentation". This applies the same to women of course, and non-binary people really

that would be me to an extent then. i was definitely a man on sunday when i did the gardening

now can you tell me the word for a person whose body is of the type that produces small mobile gametes (a.k.a sperm)

one really wonders how you people think babies are made

Wrong again the first definition is: an adult male human being

The second definition which is explained in the phrase goodwill to all men is human being of either sex, a person. That's because man is and always has been the default for millenia.

The definition in LAW as per the Equality Act 2010 is male of any age.

A transwoman is male, a man, they cannot be a transwoman unless they are, no woman can be a transwoman as they cannot get over the first hurdle, i.e., they are not male, therefore if a transwoman in your world is a woman then a woman can be a transwoman and yet...

Okok you guys are gonna hate this but the definition of man (n) in the English dictionary is "a human being of either sex; a person" or "an adult human male" but I know that's not what you wanted haha

No that's perfect. A man is an adult human male, but the word 'man' is also used to denote a human being, as in 'mankind' (though this usage is becoming archaic.)

Perfectly easy to understand and entirely in line with observable reality.

Likewise, a woman is an adult human female.

There's no need to make things more complicated than they actually are. Stick to actual reality and it all makes a lot more sense.

@CiaoForDiNiaoSaur

How do we tell the difference between the nice, genuine transwomen who just want to "pee in peace" and the not nice men who are claiming to be trans in order to access women's spaces?

My own teenage sons are lovely. Kind. Polite and I'm 99.9% certain they would never harm a woman (or another man.) So based on that they should also be allowed in the ladies yes?

For the record as its probably relevant. My rapist (who groomed, abused and raped me for years) told me it was a shame he couldn't volunteer at Brownies/Guides so he could always be with me. Likewise using ladies toilets.

I'm sure the vast majority of trans woman are lovely. As are the vast majority of men. But women still need, and deserve, single sex spaces.

Men won't stop at a woman's toilet sign. There is nothing to stop them. And if your sons come out as trans, of course they should be let into the women's bathroom! You should be proud to have kids that you can put that much faith into.

I am genuinely so sorry that you had that experience, what a horrible, horrible person, and I hope that you managed to get away from him /gen

@Waitwhat23

I understand that sharing a toilet with someone with a penis might be unsettling to you in a culture where women are taught to be wary of men

Oh look, more condescension.

There's many reasons women are wary of men, backed by evidence, research and crime rates. We're not 'taught' to be wary of men, we're killed, raped and abused by men in enormous numbers. 3 women a week on average are killed in the UK.

And for avoidance of doubt, I mean males, however they identify. And this is why self id is so, obviously, outrageously dangerous for women. How do we know which ones will harm us?

We can't.

Oh look more deflecting off the actual point! And you wouldn't say that your posts have been condescending? Either way, the toilet is just somewhere to do what you need to do and leave, there are separate cubicles even. Letting other women feel safe too means that they feel safe and doesn't put you at any disadvantage (unless you are scared of them for how they were born)

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

Okok you guys are gonna hate this but the definition of man (n) in the English dictionary is "a human being of either sex; a person"

you're going with the sexist definition of 'man as default human'? okey dokey

or "an adult human male" but I know that's not what you wanted haha

that's precisely what I wanted and precisely what a transwoman is

What about "a person who uses the traditionally ascribed masculine values of their region as the main basis for their personality and presentation". This applies the same to women of course, and non-binary people really

that would be me to an extent then. i was definitely a man on sunday when i did the gardening

now can you tell me the word for a person whose body is of the type that produces small mobile gametes (a.k.a sperm)

one really wonders how you people think babies are made

Not all men choose to have children, and it doesn't make them any less of a man! Same goes for women

@ErynIsTrans

*Well if standing up against the misogynists make for transphobia then so be it. It’s a foolish woman who rolls over to misogyny to avoid today’s slurs.*

Woah there, I'm not misogynistic. I have lost friends over their misogyny against me and my female friends. And since you are hating on women, that makes many of these people in this thread misogynistic themselves. I am standing up for those women and doing my best. I am a feminist.

You are not a feminist. Feminism is for and about females and only females, not males.

The hatred towards women comes from those, like you, who wish to strip women of their rights to safety, privacy, comfort and dignity and hand them over to males. So males have all the choice and women have none. That is something, but feminist it ain't.

Oh look more deflecting off the actual point!

what is your actual point?

explain why it's OK for women to be locked up in prison with rapists? it happens a fair bit these days

Adult human male will do nicely.

Adult human female for women. Excellent. I think we're really getting somewhere.

I'd reply to this response to me - Maybe you'll come to understand, maybe you won't :/ I hope you do because why wouldn't you, in my opinion of course - but I don't really understand what it means in the context of this debate Unless it means it's later on in the evening in your part of the world? That might explain it I suppose...

Not all men choose to have children, and it doesn't make them any less of a man! Same goes for women

so bleeding what? what is your actual point?

[quote DeckardK]@ErynIsTrans

Unfortunately this won't stop sexual assault cases, because it doesn't matter if you put a sign on the bathroom door saying no trans women, men who identify as men can still go in. theres no lock, theres no security guard. Instead of blaming innocent trans women, maybe we should address why there is so much rape and sexual assault, not just in bathrooms, but in general. And we should start believing women when they talk about their experiences, and teaching children what is and what isn't ok, (not just boys, but girls too)

Do you think male crimes against women decreased or increased once sex segregated scales were introduced?

Do you think Trans women do not commit these same crimes against women? [/quote]
do you think AFAB (assigned female at birth) women don't do these things to other AFAB women? the same for AMAB (assigned male at birth) men to other AMAB men?

And if your sons come out as trans, of course they should be let into the women's bathroom!

My son wouldn't dream of doing that. He respects women's rights and safety and understands why sex segregated space needs to be in place. It's not that hard to teach your child basic decency and respect. But if of course parents are telling their sons that they have the right to stomp all over women's safeguards, then they are teaching them to become toxic males too.

Not what I want for my child thanks.

do you think AFAB (assigned female at birth) women don't do these things to other AFAB women?

1. men commit 98% of sexual assaults

2. transwomen are men

3. including transwomen in spaces where women are vulnerable greatly increases the risk of those women being assaulted in those spaces

I know your weird religion prevents you from admitting that you understand point 2, but literally everyone know it is true (including you)

@ErynIsTrans so because men will come in anyway we should just open the doors and allow them? No thanks.

And if my sons come out as trans I'll support them whilst making it clear they aren't allowed in women's spaces. They don't know about my childhood, but if telling them makes them understand I will.

do you think AFAB (assigned female at birth) women don't do these things to other AFAB women?

Rarely, but occasionally. But why would we add men in to the mix and escalate that. Particularly as men are responsible for the majority of sexual violence towards women.

the same for AMAB (assigned male at birth) men to other AMAB men?

Yes. Men do this. Why would women want to share sex segregated space with them? Answer? They don't.

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

do you think AFAB (assigned female at birth) women don't do these things to other AFAB women?

1. men commit 98% of sexual assaults

2. transwomen are men

3. including transwomen in spaces where women are vulnerable greatly increases the risk of those women being assaulted in those spaces

I know your weird religion prevents you from admitting that you understand point 2, but literally everyone know it is true (including you)

Precisely

do you think AFAB (assigned female at birth) women don't do these things to other AFAB women? the same for AMAB (assigned male at birth) men to other AMAB men?

Of course women don't commit sex crimes at the same rate as men! Are you very young? Honestly, you need to have a look at some statistics. It's really clear. Men are the ones doing the raping and women are the ones being raped. And if you let men into women's spaces you make it easier for the rapists. Is that feminist? No, it's not.