Disagreement with husband about trans debate

[HermioneKipper]

Had people around for dinner and somehow got on to the topic of women’s spaces, being gender critical, the current debate around JKR.

After they left was discussing further with my husband and it turns out he thinks my views are extreme and I’ve “gone too far.”

He agrees that trans women who haven’t had surgery have no place in women’s spaces but thinks that if they’ve had gender reassignment surgery then they should be allowed into women’s spaces and called women.

I disagree with this and think that people cannot change sex and no male born people should be allowed into women’s spaces under any circumstances.

He said he thinks I’m too radical and shouldn’t think this way about a marginalised group 😡

I can’t believe we disagree so fundamentally on this and I’m so upset about it.

Tell him that no means no and women don’t have to justify why they don’t want males in their spaces.

So if someone had a catastrophic accident/etc and their penis was amputated, would he consider that person a woman?
A woman is not just a man without a penis.

Plenty of men seem to see the penis as key.

Don't they always

I posted a long post on another thread can copy if interested OP.

Essentially it's about
Men, masculinity, for millennia they've focused on penis as THE thing that makes a man a man.

Women aren't people in their own right, they're non men. Men- dick. No dick- not a man.

Men are one group. Not-men are another group.

If a male has no dick then belongs with other non men.

That's the thinking.

Plus that it's theoretical for them. Can do the whole look be logical, not emotional thing. And for many it's fun to do that to women, wind them up, watch them get more angry/upset.

See how he feels about it if you have a daughter who is changing in a shop/ swimming pool etc… the men in my life saw no issue until I pointed this out to them!

I don't think it's unusual or even unexpected for people to think this way. Even those who have grasped the issues with self ID and the unfairness of men in women's sports and awards.

A lot of people still see a fully transitioned male as being Hayley from Corrie or even India Willoughby. As obnoxious as they are, many people do see them as a woman.

Ah, penis focus!

There’s a great post on another thread here about this: will dig it out!

I don’t suppose men will ever get it though, as there’s a big difference between a man in a female space, and a woman in a male space.
I don’t think they will understand the fear.

Bloody hell, the great post was on a thread started by someone who said they were a transwoman who turned out to be trolling and MNHQ took the whole thing down, losing loads of good content.

Can’t recall the poster’s name. She argued that some mens brains are the thing that make then a risk, so if policy is to be based on surgery / removal of male body parts, it should be the head!

I do wonder how the character Hayley would have been taken if it had been played by a male, as it should have been IMO.

I think the angles you need to take is a) as above - that women aren’t ‘inferior men’ who lack a penis. We are full humans and not a lesser sub species of men. We are different.

b) that rape isn’t the only reason women don’t want people of the opposite sex in their single sex spaces. Other sexual assaults or physical assaults are still possible. Also, equally important reasons are privacy and dignity. Many women don’t want males present no matter what their genitals look like. It is their sex that is the issue. Finally, some women have religious reasons for single sex places.

C) it’s mission creep, as we’ve seen before. First it will be full bottom surgery, then some TW will complain and say it should include variations of that or being on hormones fora certain length of time, etc The simple answer is to go by sex not surgery or hormones.

d) Ask DH if he’d be a woman if his penis was removed or seriously damaged.

Ask him the Staniland question, after reminding him the proportion of transwomen, operation or not, who would classify their own sexuality as lesbian.

Sure, your daughter might be at some theoretical threat from natal women lesbians, but in practice, as captured on the record books, male physiologies (term used to make a point) subjected to childhood and adolescent male socialisation training commit sex crimes at incredibly different rates to female ones!

What are his views on sport?

How are males a marginalised group?

I wondered where that thread went dozer. I'd just posted some links

Op I'd actually focus more on the ideological harms as a wider whole.

So for example, non binary.

genevievegluck.substack.com/p/castrating-children-in-the-service

And this is by a transwoman:

mirandayardley.com/en/transgender-ideology-noes-not-support-women/

Talk about the experiences of detransitioners.

Transwidows.

ROGD.

Male pattern offending rates don't change with removal of penis.

It's men's fault that other men don't feel safe using the men's toilet and changing spaces etc.

All men should stop tolerating shit behaviour from other men and let all men in men's spaces, even ones that don't fit the stereotypical man.

Along side the experiences of trans widows, there's this:

childrenoftransitioners.org/

See how all the women are doing the work to try and explain to him the basics?

Even if he doesn't feel that men without a penis are not men any more, it really isn't our issue to solve. He will basically throw women under the bus in order to keep men without penises out of his spaces.

Very transphobic.

He's just not thought that much about it and being a dude he can't picture the problem.

That was my stance once. If they had had the operation then where is the harm, but I simply hadn't given it much thought. It's not until you lift that lid up and look a bit further down that your opinions change.

Not everyone gives it that much thought at first and some men (and women) just don't bother going further.

Try not to let it get to you.

It's terribly upsetting when someone you love and trust disagrees with you on something fundamental, like Brexit or getting vaccinations, and especially when they accuse you of being "too radical" and going "too far" in your views 🙄 for basically speaking the truth, that men can't be women no matter what.

He's the one who's made it personal and has basically tried to make you feel bad for saying something most people agree with. He gets to do that because what you were talking about doesn't actually affect him or his spaces whatsoever.

You agree he's thinking the way you used to, before everything got messed up with the extremism so you can at least empathise with his view.

I'd suggest if the conversation comes up again you say something along the lines of-

"I respect you enough to accept you have your opinion, and I hope you can respect me enough to accept I have mine. Please refrain from criticizing me personally, as debating who should be accepted as a woman or not is a woman's issue that doesn't affect men at all. We will simply have to agree to disagree on this."

So long as he realises that it's not practicable in terms of enforceable policy, then I personally wouldn't fall out too much over this.

I absolutely don't believe that a man without a penis is a woman, and I find it offensive that so many people view women as nothing more than penis-less men. But I do agree that someone who has gone to the lengths of extreme surgery to remove their genitals is not a physical risk to women. The risk comes from the resulting redefinition of "woman", and from those who will actively seek to harm women.

I also believe that such a surgery requirement leaves trans people themselves at risk. We shouldn't be encouraging people into risky surgery (that they might not otherwise have undertaken) with the promise of accessing women's spaces. Third spaces are safer for everyone involved.

Many people seem to believe that the two categories of humans aren't men and women, but men and everyone else. Men and non-men as the Greens would have it. I think it is unfortunately a very common position, but it can be a stepping stone to true understanding.

The difficulty is that when men hold this view, it can come from a different place. Most men place great importance on their genitals and the idea that one would want to have the surgically removed is so alien and disturbing that they think any man who would do that either deserves to be in the "not man" category because he wants to and has taken extreme measures to that end, or less "artistically" they see them as less than a man now, and want them away, in the "not a man" category.

It's offensive all around, as far as I'm concerned. Women aren't men with a bit missing.

As for the #MostOppressed... Do me a favour!

I'd stick the Nolan podcast on in the background when he's about too. Blue tooth through the radio.

That should be less "altruistically" not, artistically!

My kingdom for an edit button

Don't forget that in addition to men and non-men, lots of men divide women into fuckable and non-fuckable, so another person moving into the latter category is neither here or there to them.