If women cannot be defined biologically what happens to sex based oppression?

[Metabigot]

I mean reproductive issues such as abortion, antenatal care, maternity leave and impact on career etc.

Will we not be able to speak out on these for fear of offending the 'women' (ie trans women ) to whom this does not apply?

If transwomen are women, what are natal women... not representative of 'women' under the trans ideology it seems.

I have nothing against trans women living a life they wish and 'as a woman' if that eases dysphoria etc but my greatest fear is that female biological rights and issues will be suppressed under this ideology.

It feels like the way things are going it will be soon offensive to discuss these issues as it excludes transwomen.

Or am I exaggerating this?

Would transwomen ever support their fellow 'women' in fighting for these rights. Or see it as exclusive?

I'm referring to mainly reproductive issues as this is the one thing above all others transwomen can't do... no transwoman to my knowledge has gestated a child yet.

[quote YetAnotherSpartacus]Although apparently there is a parrot gender too...

lgbta.fandom.com/wiki/Parrotgender[/quote]
Gender for the Pokemon generation.

My parrot gender hasn't been nailed to the perch. It's just pining for the fjords.

Most parrots I have met gnaw through wooden perches so you need a steady supply. (And roof top water heating systems, sheds, large fruit trees, fences…). Some are very vocal too! Particularly in a group.

The group term for parrots in general is ‘pandemonium’. A pandemonium of parrots.

(And a crackle of cockatoos, and a giggle of Galahs… who knew?)

Sigh...its all so complicated. I think I prefer the generic term that covers all genders to make it easy.
Narcissists.

I do sometimes wonder if some of the posters on the 'trans' side are actually just teenagers bored and trying to wind em 'them feminists on mumsnet'

Sadly the trans/gender movement has got so crazy with all the neogenders and everything that that wasn't even my first thought.

I sometimes wonder that too, Joris. And then my teens talk to me about their peers. And I think "they need to get out the house in the fresh air.

One of our kids was a categoriser as a child. He spent hours lining cars up, organising various plastic models into a specific and complex order. It's a developmental stage, isn't it? Have these young people got a bit "stuck" and feel the need to categorise themselves and everyone around them according to subjective feelings?

Our son is neuro diverse. I think that is probably relevant.

A 'chatter' of budgies.

Not sorry!

We seem to be collecting them, Helle. Teen Viv started with one in lockdown, then when school went back we got a second to keep it company. Then someone needed to rehome another, so we have three. And now he's talking about breeding the pair in the summer.

How many budgies do you need to make a "chatter"?

And is there a solution to the guano situation in my living room?

viv

Be careful.... did you not read about the guy in the states who 'decluttered' his hoarding dad's house over Christmas and gave 800 or more to the animal shelter...

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-59806039

Ok that was extreme. My mum bred parrots and budgies are quite easy to breed. (as they were native as well, she had to have a special permit etc).

No solution to the poop solution. Or a daggy elasticised under cover (if you know what I mean). Ours were obviously kept in a large run outside where they could talk to all the local birds as they dropped by.

They have a habit of throwing seeds out of smaller cages too.

Maybe.... maybe I should consider that parrot gender definition more closely....

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

We seem to be collecting them, Helle. Teen Viv started with one in lockdown, then when school went back we got a second to keep it company. Then someone needed to rehome another, so we have three. And now he's talking about breeding the pair in the summer.

How many budgies do you need to make a "chatter"?

And is there a solution to the guano situation in my living room?

In my day (gosh sound old writing that) it was goth or crustie if you wanted to be different. Everyone trying to be different looking exactly the same in their unlaced DMs/ army surplus store bags

I just hope by the time my son hits that developmental stage in around 5 years time things have moved on a bit.

But it's correct that Eryn isnt a man or a woman isn't it? Eryn is a transman.

Re male / Female. I had such a depressing conversation with my teenage children. They describe themselves as cis, they are happy that males use the female toilets, they are happy for male sports people to play in female competitions, they hate JKR (I'm not sure they've even read her essay). They believe trans people are the most oppressed group of people and they need fighting for (sod the fact that 3 of my teens are bloody female). Oh and they are perfectly ok with male people joining my menopause group and my female lesbian friends being told they are transphobic if they won't date anyone with a penis.

In fact it even seems that in my son's school some boys have become trans and are using the girl's loos. And that's fine too.

It's bloody depressing.

oh and it's also fine that my 9 year old daughter had a talk from some diversity champions in her school, who all happened to be male, but who were all gay or trans and who have made her think that if she's gay she has to change her gender.

This is a little girl who still believes in father christmas but she thinks she has to change her gender because she thinks she might be gay.

It is horrendously depressing, and then even more so when adults like Keir Starmer come out with the “most vulnerable minority” stuff too.

Really? Most vulnerable? More so than children living in poverty, the disabled, refugees from Afghanistan or war zones, people living in terrible conditions in this country? Clearly, visibly not. No, middle aged largely white men who want to be women are clearly not more vulnerable than children living in poverty, etc. So why continue to say it, when it’s like putting a flag on your head that says “I haven’t engaged my brain”?

I think some of it is a generation who have had little experience of what hardship actually looks like. I grew up in the north in the 80s, where even if you didn’t live like that yourself, poverty was visible everywhere - tower blocks with broken lifts that smelt of piss and were covered in graffiti and dirt, people who were visibly old, disabled and ill, rubbish in the streets, homelessness, crime. You were confronted with the presence of terrible, visible disadvantage all the time. Stuff that I think is literally unimaginable to today’s teenagers and young people. But grown adults, especially those heading up political parties that ostensibly represent the disadvantaged, should bloody well know better.

Fox thats an interesting point - I grew up in a coal mining area.

My own family weren't affected by the strikes but I was at school with kids who were reliant on soup kitchens.

The trans people I know have degrees and middle class backgrounds. My work colleagues and social circle aren't representative of the trans community, of course - but it is striking that oppression and vulnerability are seen as having a value. That's why we have to Be Kind, isn't it? Because these people are victims and need support.

Middle class, male, white people with PhDs are the most vulnerable people in my social circle?

"I shop in the men's section, and I get my hair done by a unisex hairdresser and it is more stereotypically masculine looking"

@ErynIsTrans, some of the most stylish women I've ever met were lesbians who had short hair and wore masculine clothes. Incredibly attractive and incredibly sexy. At those parties, I'd never wished so hard not to be heterosexual.

There are ways to go outside gender stereotypes without making life really difficult and complicated for yourself. Feminists and lesbians – and feminist lesbians – have been doing it for a long, long time.

Middle class, male, white people with PhDs are the most vulnerable people in my social circle?

**

This needs to be highlighted every single time someone comes out with this guff.

Not a single one of the prominent transwomen who have so much to say could ever be described as oppressed or vulnerable.

@foxgoosefinch

It is horrendously depressing, and then even more so when adults like Keir Starmer come out with the “most vulnerable minority” stuff too.

Really? Most vulnerable? More so than children living in poverty, the disabled, refugees from Afghanistan or war zones, people living in terrible conditions in this country? Clearly, visibly not. No, middle aged largely white men who want to be women are clearly not more vulnerable than children living in poverty, etc. So why continue to say it, when it’s like putting a flag on your head that says “I haven’t engaged my brain”?

I think some of it is a generation who have had little experience of what hardship actually looks like. I grew up in the north in the 80s, where even if you didn’t live like that yourself, poverty was visible everywhere - tower blocks with broken lifts that smelt of piss and were covered in graffiti and dirt, people who were visibly old, disabled and ill, rubbish in the streets, homelessness, crime. You were confronted with the presence of terrible, visible disadvantage all the time. Stuff that I think is literally unimaginable to today’s teenagers and young people. But grown adults, especially those heading up political parties that ostensibly represent the disadvantaged, should bloody well know better.

You are so right fox.

So much of this entire ideology rests on saying things that are demonstrably, clearly not true.

It does foxgoosefinch what I would like to see/hear is that every time that most oppressed/vulnerable schtick is parroted by MPs etc., that the interviewer asks "How are they the most oppressed/vulnerable?" and keeps asking it over and over, and immediately shuts down the false suicide statistics they like to chirrup.

The falsehoods need to be exposed for the lies they are every single time.

"I shop in the men's section, and I get my hair done by a unisex hairdresser and it is more stereotypically masculine looking"

Described me at one point in my 20s. Still wear men's clothes and get my hair cut by a unisex hairdresser 30 years on.

Describes some of my friends today too, who are very much women.

I still cannot believe the references to stereotypes being trotted out like this. It defies thinking about what the fuck women have fought for all our lives.

Mrs Grumpy we were at the same parties.

I'd be a brilliant butch. If only I could give up cock.

I cannot believe actual fully grown adults go along with this shit. It perplexes me how they can even start talking about identity labels without feeling like a fool. I can forgive teenagers for it but ADULTS!?
They are literally lying to themselves and everyone around them! When did this become OK to tell literal lies because it makes some people feel better?

@ShrillSiren

I cannot believe actual fully grown adults go along with this shit. It perplexes me how they can even start talking about identity labels without feeling like a fool. I can forgive teenagers for it but ADULTS!? They are literally lying to themselves and everyone around them! When did this become OK to tell literal lies because it makes some people feel better?

Probably about the same time that it became ok to tell people that they couldn't say xyz as it was 'triggering' or would make them feel 'dysphoric'

@ErynIsTrans

Firstly, trans women are women.They will stick up for cis women, as they are women themselves. You don't have to worry about that. If anything, they will be even more understanding due to the transphobia that they face.

As for identifying people who can give birth etc, you could say people who can give birth, simple as that.

@ErynIsTrans Did you even read the earlier posts in the thread?

We'[ve already refuted your assertion of As for identifying people who can give birth etc, you could say people who can give birth, simple as that.

From that research paper:

Furthermore, such an objection [to making early medical abortion easier to access] is an instance of regulation assuming that people with the physiology to become pregnant are irresponsible users of healthcare.

The reader struggles to see the medical and regulatory misogyny described in that paragraph. If I reword it to say "women", that structural misogyny suddenly becomes glaringly obvious.

Furthermore, such an objection is an instance of regulation assuming that women are irresponsible users of healthcare.

Taking away our ability to name reproductive oppression as being misogynist is itself a form of misogyny.