Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

If women cannot be defined biologically what happens to sex based oppression?

220 replies

Metabigot · 30/12/2021 16:25

I mean reproductive issues such as abortion, antenatal care, maternity leave and impact on career etc.

Will we not be able to speak out on these for fear of offending the 'women' (ie trans women ) to whom this does not apply?

If transwomen are women, what are natal women... not representative of 'women' under the trans ideology it seems.

I have nothing against trans women living a life they wish and 'as a woman' if that eases dysphoria etc but my greatest fear is that female biological rights and issues will be suppressed under this ideology.

It feels like the way things are going it will be soon offensive to discuss these issues as it excludes transwomen.

Or am I exaggerating this?

Would transwomen ever support their fellow 'women' in fighting for these rights. Or see it as exclusive?

I'm referring to mainly reproductive issues as this is the one thing above all others transwomen can't do... no transwoman to my knowledge has gestated a child yet.

OP posts:
vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 05/01/2022 22:46

Who do I need to write to in order to get the Clangers back on CBeebies?

Their fashion was gender neutral.

Visionary.

ArabellaScott · 05/01/2022 22:46

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

'how do narcissists narcissist best when in a room full of narcissists' has been answered

fantastic summary, Shed.

Also, now that I'm trying try hard to "educate myself" - I found this...Neptune = Clangers. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seal_of_Neptune

Grin

DID YOU KNOW the clangers were actually swearing quite often? True fact.

littlbrowndog · 05/01/2022 22:47

@HaroldMeeker

But that's a different planet!!!!!

wails
!!!!!!!!

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
HaroldMeeker · 05/01/2022 22:47

I have a book of knitting patterns for the clangers!!! Pure class!!!!

littlbrowndog · 05/01/2022 22:48

The clangers. Total tossers all of them. So wrong. But yet so right

ErynIsTrans · 05/01/2022 22:48

[quote Moonbabysmum]@ErynIsTrans

I didn't say you weren't human.

But if you were otherkin, do you think that human rights apply to them? If yes, how is that compatible with supporting their identity?[/quote]
Again, I've never met someone who feels that way, so I'm not sure lmao I don't have all the answers. Maybe if you meet someone like that you could ask them?

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 05/01/2022 22:48

That fucking explains a thing or two, Arabella

I was brought up on that and Captain Pugwash. Swearing and wanking are my best skillz

littlbrowndog · 05/01/2022 22:49

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

Who do I need to write to in order to get the Clangers back on CBeebies?

Their fashion was gender neutral.

Visionary.

They are on. Trust me I have been forced to watch
HaroldMeeker · 05/01/2022 22:50

I loved the sound the soup dragon made! That lovely burbling hooty noise! So fun! And when I was 10, I got a whistle in my Christmas stocking that made a noise just like the clangers!

Ahhhhhh.....simpler days!

littlbrowndog · 05/01/2022 22:51

I think they are on just before night garden might be mistaken as by then I have lost the will to watch

littlbrowndog · 05/01/2022 22:51

Soup dragon is ❤️

ErynIsTrans · 05/01/2022 22:53

I shop in the men's section, and I get my hair done by a unisex hairdresser and it is more stereotypically masculine looking

That's your choice! And that of course doesn't make you any less of your preferred gender, I just choose for that to mean that I present much more masculine and loser to being a man.

HaroldMeeker · 05/01/2022 22:54

@littlbrowndog

Soup dragon is ❤️
Yay! Another soup dragon fan!

Milky bars are on me!!!!!

HaroldMeeker · 05/01/2022 22:56

@ErynIsTrans

I shop in the men's section, and I get my hair done by a unisex hairdresser and it is more stereotypically masculine looking

That's your choice! And that of course doesn't make you any less of your preferred gender, I just choose for that to mean that I present much more masculine and loser to being a man.

You do realise you're talking to yourself here?

You feeling okay, hun?

littlbrowndog · 05/01/2022 22:57

And soup dragons baby 🥰

Shedmistress · 05/01/2022 22:58

@ErynIsTrans

I shop in the men's section, and I get my hair done by a unisex hairdresser and it is more stereotypically masculine looking

That's your choice! And that of course doesn't make you any less of your preferred gender, I just choose for that to mean that I present much more masculine and loser to being a man.

You realise you are talking to yourself there.
HaroldMeeker · 05/01/2022 23:03

Distracted by the clangers and soup dragon, I expect! Totally understandable!
nods sagely at us being able to educamate a neptunian on moon stuffz

EasyBreezy · 05/01/2022 23:14

I have to say that the comment about using male toilets because you felt safer away from female toilets made me wonder...is that because of all the men in the female toilets?

PlasticPlantsDontDie · 05/01/2022 23:17

Why can’t you just dress and present yourself how you like without having to label yourself, or others?

ErynIsTrans · 05/01/2022 23:55

@EasyBreezy

I have to say that the comment about using male toilets because you felt safer away from female toilets made me wonder...is that because of all the men in the female toilets?
No its because of all of the women in the female toilets. As I was presenting as male they would often stare at me as if i didn't belong. I am an AFAB person. I feel safer from transphobia if i go to the men's toilets.
ErynIsTrans · 05/01/2022 23:56

@PlasticPlantsDontDie

Why can’t you just dress and present yourself how you like without having to label yourself, or others?
I choose to label myself because it brings me comfort. You don't have to.
OvaHere · 06/01/2022 00:37

No its because of all of the women in the female toilets. As I was presenting as male they would often stare at me as if i didn't belong. I am an AFAB person. I feel safer from transphobia if i go to the men's toilets.

So why are other women not allowed to have opinions on how safe they feel in toilets depending on who is in there with them? Double standard much.

By the way, you may feel safer in the mens but statistically speaking you really aren't.

ErynIsTrans · 06/01/2022 00:42

For me, how unsafe or safe I feel isn't due to men being sexist. For me, it is entirely due to how likely I am to get beaten up when I leave. You are free to have your own opinion. But imagine how likely a trans woman is if she went into the male toilets. If men are so violent and terrible, how do you think they'll react when they see a woman come in? That woman is much more likely to get beaten up/raped by those men than she is to rape a woman in the women's bathroom. You talk about my double standards when you are much the same, if not worse.

OvaHere · 06/01/2022 01:16

We fundamentally disagree on who is a woman so there's probably no point arguing with you further about males using male spaces.

There's plenty of evidence available of how vulnerable women and girls are when single sex spaces become mixed sex by the virtue of language obfuscation.

I'm sorry you think you will get beaten up for using the facilities of your sex but I stand by my point that statistically you are less safe using male spaces than female ones even if it doesn't feel that way to you.

foxgoosefinch · 06/01/2022 01:53

@ErynIsTrans

Hi! Thank you for the questions, I'm not a trans man, I'm neptunian, which is a non-binary gender (you can just say non-binary if you don't want to use neptunian /gen) I actually prefer to use the men's toilet because although I am AFAB (assigned female at birth) I have a masculine haircut and wear masculine clothes, so although I used to use the women's toilet, as I began to look more masculine, I would begin to get strange looks from the women in there, so for my own safety I use the men's.

And yes! I was assigned female at birth! I plan to start taking testosterone, and eventually have gender affirming surgery, so at that point my sex would be male (please don't bring up chromosomes, they're unreliable and give me dysphoria as they make me feel like i could never truly be non-binary) so although thats what the doctors decided when the analysed my body at birth, my sex will hopefully change (or at least to an extent)

If my dad came out as trans, i would use her preferred name and pronouns! There isn't a time limit on coming out, you're just as valid if you are 10 when you come out, or whether you're 60! And yes she would then use women's facilities, if she wants to/feels comfortable to. I think it would be up to her if I called her mum or not, but if she wanted me to, I would use it.

I'm interested in this:

"I would begin to get strange looks from the women in there, so for my own safety I use the men's"

Could you elaborate on this? Is it your genuine belief that women are going to assault you in the ladies' toilets?

And you think that using the men's is safer (then men's loos, where feminine presenting or gay men and trans women claim they are terribly at risk from the threat of male violence)? You know of course that some of their main arguments for trans women being in women's spaces is because of the threat men pose to gender non conforming individuals? Yet you seem to be saying that you feel "safer" there?

Is this based on any evidence from reality, or is it just all a kind of theatrical pretence?

I plan to start taking testosterone, and eventually have gender affirming surgery, so at that point my sex would be male (please don't bring up chromosomes, they're unreliable and give me dysphoria as they make me feel like i could never truly be non-binary) so although thats what the doctors decided when the analysed my body at birth, my sex will hopefully change (or at least to an extent)

You know that hormones and surgery produce cosmetic effects on your body but that you never actually "change sex", don't you? And that many of these treatments can't always be performed, and always carry serious risks? If you don't, I can't imagine that you can be said to have given informed consent to the procedures.

You also know that no doctors "analysed your body at birth", no?

You sound very young and very naive. "Neptunian" or not, you do know that genders and neopronouns are all make believe, don't you? They can't be made to be real, even if you have some of the most drastic surgeries?

You are allowed to dress and cut your hair however you like, whatever you "identify" as! But, "identities" are stories, narratives and beliefs in people's imaginations, ones that are exchanged through language between the subjective, interior world of the self, and the social world of our relationships. They are sometimes fun, and sometimes socially expedient, and sometimes oppressive, and sometimes tell us useful things about the world. But they are social and constructed, not material reality. We all know perfectly well that social and imaginative constructions like "non-binary" are not real. You do not and should not have to change your body to fit an imaginative "identity". Especially not something someone made up on the internet that calls itself:

A non-binary xenogender in the celestial gender system. The original definition of neptunian is a gender linked to the void and to a soft, celestial, masculine energy. It is never hyper masculine. It is not male-aligned, simply linked. Ones who identify as Neptunian may feel different amounts of masculine energy at different times.

These are pretend, made up things for kids and teenagers. No-one should be thinking of having drastic major surgery that will affect them lifelong because of some sub-fantasy-novel level make-believe they read on the internet. You might not like to hear it, but it is true, unfortunately. Rather than thinking about hormones or chromosomes, you would do better to read some good classic novels, or get outside for a walk, or take up photography or volunteering, or another pursuit where you can meet people in real life and get some social interaction in person. I wish you well.