Common courtesy, a non-malicious question from a transgender person

[WhiteFlagHeldAloft]

Hello,

I wanted to ask a question that perhaps some of you may have an answer for. This is not intended to be malicious in any way, or to incite a flame war.

I am another person among many who identifies as transgender. My chromosomes are XY, I lived out my childhood and adolescence as a boy and began taking estrogen and testosterone suppressors at age 18. I identify as a woman and ask that others respect me in that identity. I am in a relationship with a woman who identifies as a lesbian, she was born and has lived her entire life as a woman.

I feel the need to clarify who I am before asking my question as the answer to this question is very relevant to me. I rarely leave me and my partners home, and without fail avoid any kind of sex-segregated environment as much as I can. I work from home, so don't have to do much there. I am not a part of any activism. I am not a vocal member of any kind of community, and avoid social media like a plague ridden rat. I have only ever engaged in sexual contact with my present partner, and for fear that I would not be accepted by her I was never the one to initiate such contact. I understand and uphold consent as a universal necessity, particularly as I have experienced sexual violence myself as an adult.

Alright, that's me. There's a lot more to me than that, but for the purposes of the topic at hand I feel its relevant to state the above.

Why is it okay to not be respectful of my wishes with regards to my identity and how am I spoken to? Why is a simple request regarding language when talking to me such an unreasonable demand? Is it not a common courtesy to be respectful towards someone who is being respectful of you? Whenever I mention that I am transgender and was not born a woman, a lot of gender critical people i encounter immediately start referring to me as a man even when they had been referring to me as a woman before. Over the years and pre pandemic I used to occasionally frequent LGBT spaces and still frequent some private LGBT groups online.

I'm not claiming anything about my biology or genetics or trying to argue that ive somehow changed my genetic makeup. I'm upfront about who I am. I have no recourse in situations where someone just decides to remind me in every sentence of how I was born. It might seem stupid, trivial, ludicrous even that it hurts me but it does. I am very aware of how I was born. I am very aware that I am different. I hate everything about how I was born. To be reminded of that constantly, sometimes even aggressively is mentally and emotionally exhausting. I don't understand why, its not as though its so hard to refer to me respectfully. You don't even have to agree with me, you can think I'm crazy or insane or delusional or whatever else. But at the end of the day its still a slight change in how you speak to me. Benign, and inconsequential to you maybe but to me it isn't.

Theres so much hatred in this discussion I feel like its become so polarized to that point that the lives of unrelated individual people are being dragged through the mud for no reason. I don't want to change your opinions on my identity or convince you of anything. I dont want to hurt anyone or make anyone uncomfortable. I just want to be allowed to exist and engage with other people who will respect me. That's all.

So, to reiterate, why is it okay to just outright not afford me common courtesy? Why is it encouraged, even endorsed, by many gender critical people to not give me that respect? I havent done anything to gender critical people. Im not even involved in any kind of activism or social media. I've been dragged into this unwillingly. I just want to live my life and feel free to frequent LGBT spaces where I won't be harassed by virtue of my very existence and nothing at all to do with the content of my character.

Actually, a trans woman is allowed to call themselves a mother if they want darling

Not on the child's birth certificate.

Your knowledge of the Law around the GRA, GRC and the Equality Act is woeful.

i So, to reiterate, why is it okay to just outright not afford me common courtesy

Common courtesy is using a person's name and being polite to them.

Common courtesy does not extend to using incorrect sex-based terms for a person. That would be putting me in the awkward position of using language I disagree with.

@Helleofabore

And obviously motherof4 knows about the fast growing porn segment of transitioned males masturbating in female toilets on live steaming. Complete with the sounds of children and women in the cubicles besides.

Or… are they not trans either? Or will you use the ‘scale’ argument? It is only a ‘small number’ of these people and not representative of all? Like the crime statistics that you are bound to be posting soon that proves that transitioned males do not commit sex crime at all (apart from the one or two well known ones) and therefore all safeguarding should be suspended for all transitioned males.

Looking forward to those stats, they must be convincing.

And the period fetish which includes rifling through sanitary bins for used products then boasting about wearing them online

motheroffour

Good morning. I'd like to share a recent newspaper article with you and discuss the issues of policy it highlights.

extract

Jessica Brennan, known as Allan Brennan at the time of the offences, groomed then sexually abused the four children between1998 and 2016.

The 54-year-old tried to rape one of the children and another girl was subjected to systematic abuse over the course of a decade, which involved 'multiple' incidents.

York Crown Court heard the victims, who cannot be named for legal reasons, were haunted by the abuse and their lives had been 'ruined' by the paedophile.

Brennan, from Harrogate, North Yorkshire, was charged with 16 separate offences including sexual assault of a child, indecent assault, sexual activity with a child and one count of attempted rape of a girl under 13.

The Ministry of Justice would not reveal which prison Brennan will be sent to following her sentencing, though she was in male-only HMP Hull prior to her court appearance.

Under UK law, transgender people are initially sent to prisons based on their legal status - but can request a transfer to another prison. [bold mine]

Prosecutors told the courtone of the victimscame forward to police with allegations against Brennan as early as 2000 but no charges were brought.

The court heard the allegations re-emerged three to four years ago, when the abuse finally stopped and other girls came forward.

Brennan, who was listed as Allan Brennan by the court but identifies as Jessica, was charged with a raft of sexual offences.

One of the victims said she had suffered anxiety attacks since the abuse and had been taking anti-depressants as a result. She had been unable to form proper relationships and felt inexplicable guilt, the court was told.

Another victim had been having counselling sessions due to anxiety after losing her 'self-worth and self-esteem'.

In a statement, the victim told the court: 'It's made it hard for me to trust people

'This has affected my family.Anything that this evil man gets won't be enough for what he's done to me and my family.'

Another victim spoke of her 'pain and suffering over the last 21 years'.

She said: 'I was sexually abused when I was four. I had minimum understanding of what was happening to me. The comprehension of what happened to me as a child makes me sick to my stomach. [bold mine]

From: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9596003/Transgender-woman-sexually-abused-girls-young-four-jailed-22-years.html

Should this person really go in a women's prison? They didn't seem to have any dysphoria over their body when abusing children.

Does it change your answer if I remind you that there are only 12 women's prisons in England and Wales, and six of those prisons have a mother and baby unit for incarcerated women who gave birth in prison or shortly before their conviction?

The MBUs are in a separate part of the prison and are designed to be a safe place where a mother can look after her child with supervision. The aim is to establish and maintain a bond between mother and child, in line with evidence that a key psychological process of attachment takes place between babies and their primary caregiver in the first six to seven months of life, which influences the later development. MBUs are supported by trained prison staff and nursery nurses throughout the stay to teach mothers new skills for when they are released such as cooking and caring for their babies.

backintosociety.co.uk/2021/04/12/prison-mother-and-baby-units-in-england-and-wales/

For mothers of older children, can you imagine having visitation with your child at the same time Brennan the child molester was in the visitation room receiving a visit from whatever friends and family Brennan retains?

Are we going to get the definitive, ground breaking way to tell a genuine nice, kind, non threatening, non sex offending TW from a man who is pretending @motheroffour824? Would be ever so helpful and if you could give us those statistics that show TW don't offend at the same rates as men who are not TW at the same time that would be most appreciated. TIA.

This is a thread on twitter today, which touches on similar issues.

twitter thread

Yesterday I tweeted something to @Jgicriminolg about Gender Self ID. Been amazed at the engagement so thought I would say a bit more. For a short while I was Probation Officer in a Multi Agency Public Protection team. I met a lot of sex offenders.

I came across sex offenders who converted to Islam or Christianity and tried to change names or exploit weaknesses in legislation. Who posed really significant risk to Women, Girls and Boys. I think I should talk about gender self ID, and why I have concerns

Some academics suggest there is little (if any) support for the idea that Trans protections facilitate cisgender preditory offenders who then feign a trans identity to perpatrate assaults in women only spaces. This is unbelievably naive. Staggeringly so.

The idea that sex offenders are manipulative individuals who would exploit systems and laws could only be unreal to those who do not know how manipulative sexual offenders can be. All groom, seek to exploit and control. It's different, They have different plays, but all do it.

I sat across from sex offender who swore to me he wasn't working, he left my office to attend a children's charity disco his was supposed to be DJ at. A child rapist, "It is my right to practice my Bhuddist faith, and I should be allowed to travel to Thailand". (Hmm, no)

Some.academics say concerns over "supposed" threat of trans identities reveal lingering anti-trans sentiment. Do they? No. I know Trans people face massive abuse, I see that too. Both can be true. Yet still I am not sold in any way that Gender Self ID is as simple as some suggest

Bad law happens, bad legislation without consideration does have risk, and in this instance of Gender Self ID to me, the concern is also understandable. Of course some views may come from predudice. But not all. In my view if those who support Gender Self ID want to see change...

then there is a need to address concerns head on, and not simply claim they are not real, not empirically grounded or merely anecdotal. To me the issue here is the danger that Trans identity is used as cover for harmful individuals. That is in no one's interest.

Least of all Trans people. No community is made stronger internally or externally by association, real or implied with the most selfish, narcassistic, harmful and individuals, many of whom get off on causing pain to others around them. Who wants those people in their group?

My experiences are limited, but I have met and dealt with a lot more nasty, violent and dangerous preditory male sexual offenders than most people have. That is the group driving my concern. What I know of them as a group, there is NO rule or opportunity they will not exploit.

It isn't about trans people, it's about bad people who will exploit the law from self interest and work within a legal framework (that could protect women's spaces) to do as they want and get what they want. You think that won't happen, you don't know how many sex offenders act.

twitter.com/James_Treadwell/status/1475413012945281025?t=IwWpNgF9UTWFqSW5AOUtbQ&s=19

As the gentleman I just quoted above said

No community is made stronger internally or externally by association, real or implied with the most selfish, narcassistic, harmful and individuals, many of whom get off on causing pain to others around them. Who wants those people in their group?

This image is a comment from a transwoman and trans activist (who runs a business offering training to companies on how to be trans inclusive, IIRC). Miller doesn't want to be associated with these people either.

Is it kind and compassionate of people who consider themselves allies to the T, to insist that sex offenders should also be included as transgender? Motheroffour, do you really think sex offenders have stuff in common with your friends?

The naiveté that abusive predatory men won't intentionally exploit any loophole in a system that allows anyone access to female space, is actually quite shocking.
Abusive predatory men will position themselves as law enforcement, church pastors, teachers, foster carers, children's entertainers, beloved celebrities, charitable people, nursery workers, working in schools or hospitals, as nightclub staff or cab drivers, to ensure they have access to victims. The only place they've not been able to get into have been sex segregated, female only safe spaces. Until now. Now there's that wonderful self ID where any man can wake up and call himself Susan and you can't question him. And he can change his identity to "woman" at any time. Including halfway thru a prosecution for rape. And then he and his penis will be housed with women, hundreds of potential victims locked in with him.
And a vast majority of women in prison have suffered abuse in their life prior to being incarcerated. But they don't matter do they?

The men that can now self I'd as women and gain access to domestic abuse safehouses, housed with women who've suffered horrific abuse at the hands of men and are then forced to live with one, to hear his voice through the wall, to share facilities with him, or be branded a bigot and transphobic. Can gain access to rape support groups for female victims of male rape. Can counsel women who access rape crisis!! Imagine! Talking to a fucking man about what's happened to you after specifically requested a female therapist. But you don't get to say he's not a female, and the CEO of rape crisis (Scotland) is more interested in re-educating you to unlearn your "bigotry" at wanting a female rape crisis therapist.

Self ID serves the interests of predators who would seek to abuse that system. And yet again, it is women who have to pay that price.

I'll be as kind as you like, I refer to tw by their chosen name, I don't often talk about them in a way to warrant the need for fucking pronouns but tw need their OWN specialised support and spaces, not access to female only. And our language does need to be modified or removed to be more "kind and inclusive". I don't give a shit if people don't like the worst breastfeed or mother, I don't like the word moist but I don't demand people change the English language to bend to my will lest they be branded phobic and bigoted.

My support for a cause finds its limits quite abruptly when it starts endangering the safety of women and girls. Enjoy your screenshots Twitter 😘

tw need their OWN specialised support and spaces, not access to female only.

Quite. It's been destruction tested as to whether this would be a case of sharing the female only space and no harm happening to females in the process.

It's removing and owning female only spaces, there is no 'share' about it, while bumping out a lot of females and the harm is stacking up in all directions. Women are having to seek court action to try and deal with some of the worst of these harms.

It's been tried. It's failed. Largely because of the behaviour of those who brought a hell of a lot of male entitlement, sexism, and an appalling lack of tolerance and basic respect for women. Women's needs cannot be met in single sex spaces, even when we're talking about less than 1% of the male population in there with them. TQ+ needs are going to have to be met in other ways.

Women are having to seek court action to try and deal with some of the worst of these harms.

And God knows, it's up hill and nobody cares, which tells you all you need to know about who has the power in this situation and who is actually oppressed.

I would refer to you as she/ her and you'd be a woman to me. However, I would want to know if I were going to be in a changing room with you etc or sharing a shower etc as you are not trans-sexual.

And a vast majority of women in prison have suffered abuse in their life prior to being incarcerated. But they don't matter do they?

Exactly!

If people are genuinely scared rather than this superficial anger these "feminists" are spouting, I am sorry! The world moves quickly, but we'll move with it.

Ahh, yes, the 'poor old dears can't keep up' thing that I've been seeing recently.

Yes, we can keep up, and we can actually look a couple of steps ahead to see the damage that allowing males into female space can do, and already is doing. Thanks a lot, I'm not entirely old and baffled yet.

I, too, have known/worked with a couple of transexuals (both trans identifying males). Neither had been through significantly more mental anguish than anyone else for any other reasons.

I am posting igneo’s generous share token here.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ba69c2c0-668b-11ec-98df-0bb0132add1b?shareToken=f53fe2c462d32ddc9bd3e5d7faab1d4d

Maybe all those remonstrating others for not ‘being kind’ and using pronouns wholeheartedly (ie not the many posters who have indicated they do so but are lying out of politeness) can tell us exactly how this does not harm rape and assault victims?

How does being forced to describe your attacker as a woman, the word for adult human female, make coping with trauma easier? How does it not retraumatise by not allowing a truthful framing of the event?

Because by extending a ‘courtesy’ to one person, means you do it for all. No exceptions. Ever.

I look forward to the detailed explanations.

@Nailsbythesea

I would refer to you as she/ her and you'd be a woman to me. However, I would want to know if I were going to be in a changing room with you etc or sharing a shower etc as you are not trans-sexual.

If they were a woman to you, why would it matter whether you would be sharing a changing room or shower with them?

For those reading along, this thread might be good reading. The later pages have many many links to read.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

If people are genuinely scared rather than this superficial anger these "feminists" are spouting, I am sorry! The world moves quickly, but we'll move with it.

I would personally have been a lot more kind and generous than that, since I'm able to cope with caring about everyone in the situation and not just my 'favourite group', since I actually believe in inclusion and diversity and an answer that works for all equally.

But ok. If you want it to be 'suck it up buttercup' and some lose all access, inclusion, their voice and needs being met, and you're ok with that? Then presumably you're fine with TQ+ people sucking it up and going on using men's spaces. The world moves on, right? They'll get used to it. Or do you only have that brutal expectation for mere females?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread

Here is another

The correct analogy would be, in your case, that a Christian wouldn't demand someone who subscribes to Islam to call their god "God".

Yes, so trans people who believe in gender ideology shouldn't demand that gender atheists pretend that they've changed sex, well done

This was also a very informative thread.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4356627-Womens-Wellbeing-in-Prisons?pg=2

@ArabellaScott

Sorry if thay want clear - I mean what is the difference between a male pretending to be a transwoman and a male who actually is a transwoman? And how can we tell?

Women are okay to be cautious about predatory men, yes? So tell us how we can distinguish between a true and a false transwoman, please. Thanks.

"Acceptance without exception" is the gospel preached by Stonewall. And "I am who I say I am" according to Amnesty. So I think both have to accept the large numbers of transwomen who are paedophiles and rapists. I think the current prison stats are showing that transwomen are more likely to be convicted of sexual offences than other men. (See Prof Alice Sullivan on Twitter.)

@Atmywitsend29 great post

And regarding the trauma women have been through before going to prison, a staggering 80% of women prisoners have had repeated head injuries, mainly due to domestic abuse. They are vulnerable. I find it appalling that some people are supporting the inclusion of transwomen (including those convicted of sexual offences) in prison with these vulnerable women. It's as if they just don't give a shit.

I'd really appreciate Motherof4 to come back and at least read what's been said here. I personally wish someone, somewhere, would have the guts to come back when challenged. Not with sneers, as she's done, but with factual support for their position, or an admission that they hadn't thought of the things that had now been pointed out to them. Ghosting is just cowardice.

[quote Waitwhat23]@Atmywitsend29 great post

And regarding the trauma women have been through before going to prison, a staggering 80% of women prisoners have had repeated head injuries, mainly due to domestic abuse. They are vulnerable. I find it appalling that some people are supporting the inclusion of transwomen (including those convicted of sexual offences) in prison with these vulnerable women. It's as if they just don't give a shit.[/quote]
You are correct, they don't give a shit, no opening of arms by motherof4 for those women, nor any of the following women:

Rape victims
Religious women
Disabled women
Lesbians

In fact any woman who isn't a TW, the snidey comments prove it it's all about the males at any price, other women bearing the cost of that? They don't give a flying fuck.

[quote Waitwhat23]@Atmywitsend29 great post

And regarding the trauma women have been through before going to prison, a staggering 80% of women prisoners have had repeated head injuries, mainly due to domestic abuse. They are vulnerable. I find it appalling that some people are supporting the inclusion of transwomen (including those convicted of sexual offences) in prison with these vulnerable women. It's as if they just don't give a shit.[/quote]
I forgot to add aswell that women's prisons are mixed ages, they're not split like men's. Young offenders (18-21) are housed with adult prisoners (21+) so we are giving rapists access to not just adult women, but young offenders aswell. And no one cares. None of these "be kind" people can extend the courtesy to be kind to women in prison.

(Prison service doesn't consider you an adult until 21 due to different needs at that age, justice and court system is different)