Common courtesy, a non-malicious question from a transgender person

[WhiteFlagHeldAloft]

Hello,

I wanted to ask a question that perhaps some of you may have an answer for. This is not intended to be malicious in any way, or to incite a flame war.

I am another person among many who identifies as transgender. My chromosomes are XY, I lived out my childhood and adolescence as a boy and began taking estrogen and testosterone suppressors at age 18. I identify as a woman and ask that others respect me in that identity. I am in a relationship with a woman who identifies as a lesbian, she was born and has lived her entire life as a woman.

I feel the need to clarify who I am before asking my question as the answer to this question is very relevant to me. I rarely leave me and my partners home, and without fail avoid any kind of sex-segregated environment as much as I can. I work from home, so don't have to do much there. I am not a part of any activism. I am not a vocal member of any kind of community, and avoid social media like a plague ridden rat. I have only ever engaged in sexual contact with my present partner, and for fear that I would not be accepted by her I was never the one to initiate such contact. I understand and uphold consent as a universal necessity, particularly as I have experienced sexual violence myself as an adult.

Alright, that's me. There's a lot more to me than that, but for the purposes of the topic at hand I feel its relevant to state the above.

Why is it okay to not be respectful of my wishes with regards to my identity and how am I spoken to? Why is a simple request regarding language when talking to me such an unreasonable demand? Is it not a common courtesy to be respectful towards someone who is being respectful of you? Whenever I mention that I am transgender and was not born a woman, a lot of gender critical people i encounter immediately start referring to me as a man even when they had been referring to me as a woman before. Over the years and pre pandemic I used to occasionally frequent LGBT spaces and still frequent some private LGBT groups online.

I'm not claiming anything about my biology or genetics or trying to argue that ive somehow changed my genetic makeup. I'm upfront about who I am. I have no recourse in situations where someone just decides to remind me in every sentence of how I was born. It might seem stupid, trivial, ludicrous even that it hurts me but it does. I am very aware of how I was born. I am very aware that I am different. I hate everything about how I was born. To be reminded of that constantly, sometimes even aggressively is mentally and emotionally exhausting. I don't understand why, its not as though its so hard to refer to me respectfully. You don't even have to agree with me, you can think I'm crazy or insane or delusional or whatever else. But at the end of the day its still a slight change in how you speak to me. Benign, and inconsequential to you maybe but to me it isn't.

Theres so much hatred in this discussion I feel like its become so polarized to that point that the lives of unrelated individual people are being dragged through the mud for no reason. I don't want to change your opinions on my identity or convince you of anything. I dont want to hurt anyone or make anyone uncomfortable. I just want to be allowed to exist and engage with other people who will respect me. That's all.

So, to reiterate, why is it okay to just outright not afford me common courtesy? Why is it encouraged, even endorsed, by many gender critical people to not give me that respect? I havent done anything to gender critical people. Im not even involved in any kind of activism or social media. I've been dragged into this unwillingly. I just want to live my life and feel free to frequent LGBT spaces where I won't be harassed by virtue of my very existence and nothing at all to do with the content of my character.

@motheroffour824

The trans women I have met are some of the most lovely people who have faced incredible adversity. They may never understand the struggles of women in the way you all for some reason are concerned with, but they'll go through struggles more severe than I'll ever know. I open my arms to them. I find all of your insecurity staggering. By calling someone a "woman" when they biologically are otherwise isn't signing myself up for something. If people are genuinely scared rather than this superficial anger these "feminists" are spouting, I am sorry! The world moves quickly, but we'll move with it.

What a load of utter bollocks. I'm embarrassed for you.

"you all for some reason are concerned with,"

Seriously? You don't know why we are concerned with the struggles of women and girls? You do know where you are posting don't you?

@Helleofabore

Essentially as soon as a political project is attached to using preferred pronouns, it becomes a problem to use them unless you are really on board with that political program.

Just read this. And yes, anyone denying the political value of this action has either an agenda or lacks the depth of knowledge to see the political machinations behind it.

The political dimensions, thought totalism and control of language are discussed in this thread.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4382551-Live-not-by-lies-Solzhenitsyn-no-tambourines-involved?msgid=111900052

If you're not 'genuinely' scared that this ideology's political agenda fights for things like giving rapists access to incarcerated women are part of their sentence, then you're either callous behind belief or haven't been paying attention.

Yes, of course I know this happens. But this is MEN doing it. Not trans women. Your issue is with MEN pretending to be a trans woman to get access to vulnerable women.

@motheroffour824

The issue of mixed sex/gender neutral spaces is a problem regarding men, not trans women. If someone has legally transitioned and their birth certificate is now altered, you have no leg to stand on. They are a woman now.

Trans women are men otherwise what are they transitioning from

Secondly the vast majority of TW don’t have a GRC so are not ‘legally’ women

But you crack on with what you want to do as regards TW but you don’t get to give away my rights to single sex spaces so that you feel better about keeping men happy

Do please tell us how we tell men pretending to be TW from TW when it’s “acceptance with exception” and “no debate”. If a man says he’s a women then he is and that’s all that’s required is it not?

Transwomen are male. There is no difference between a sincere lovely TW and any other male when they walk into a women's space - they have immediately stopped it from being a single sex space, their presence excludes some females from any space at all, and as one male person their needs are perceived as outweighing every single female who ever has or ever will use that space.

This is just flat out male supremacist. Your argument really is that this group of male people are so special and vulnerable that females as a sex class must be subordinated to them. No.

Not to mention: there is no way to gatekeep whether a male entering a female space is a TW at all, never mind a lovely one or one who intends to do what Karen White did to multiple women using their access on demand to female only spaces. If it's any male, it's all males. This whole 'but predatory men are a different group' is nonsense, isn't it? The only way to tell is whether or not a woman is left damaged when the male leaves the space he chose to enter.

It's staggering how subhuman you seem to think females are compared to males.

Oh, are you trans? That explains everything.

@Theeyeballsinthesky

Do please tell us how we tell men pretending to be TW from TW when it’s “acceptance with exception” and “no debate”. If a man says he’s a women then he is and that’s all that’s required is it not?

Of course you know nothing about me, and I am extremely glad of that, but I don't actually believe in the loose self identification I talk of. I believe formal transitioning should be a longer process, and especially so regarding our young. But I respect pronouns either way, because it is a very small way to be kind.

I'm allowed to call myself the Queen of Sheffield if I want to... that's not really much of an argument, is it? It's probably not going to fly that far for either of us in the cold light of day.

I'll be respectful and use pronouns in person.

But when talking about someone like Lia Thomas, whose XY chromosomes are a serious issue, I refuse to use she/her because it lacks clarity. I worry that if I use 'he' I'll get a deletion from MN so I use [pronoun].

@Grumpyosaurus

I'll be respectful and use pronouns in person.

But when talking about someone like Lia Thomas, whose XY chromosomes are a serious issue, I refuse to use she/her because it lacks clarity. I worry that if I use 'he' I'll get a deletion from MN so I use [pronoun].

I totally understand this. Blind acceptance is never helpful, you're engaging with it critically which is far more than some people on here

But I respect pronouns either way, because it is a very small way to be kind.

If you read the thread, you will find many, many patiently explained posts as to why this is really not 'kind' and is a gateway to a whole lot of problems for women.

You could try listening and engaging with those problems and looking for some compromise by taking women's views and needs and experiences seriously instead of sneering at them. Compromise is possible. Why wouldn't you want solutions that work for all if you care about inclusion, tolerance and kindness? Where's your reciprocation?
Demand without return isn't going to work.

@motheroffour824

If you're not 'genuinely' scared that this ideology's political agenda fights for things like giving rapists access to incarcerated women are part of their sentence, then you're either callous behind belief or haven't been paying attention.

Yes, of course I know this happens. But this is MEN doing it. Not trans women. Your issue is with MEN pretending to be a trans woman to get access to vulnerable women.

What is the difference? And how can we tell?

Comprehension isn't your strong point. If you're not trans, you don't get to decide what you call yourself. If you're female, the noo roolz state you are referred to as a menstruation, a uterus owner, a birthing parent, a bleeder. You're subhuman. Didn't you know?

ArabellaScott you make an extremely good point, it's something we as a society need to work on in the same way we need to look at other largely male crimes.

When women collide with bending reality to suit the lie transpeople tell themselves, it actively hurts women. It makes women complicit in the erasure of all the objective definitions of what it means to be a woman. And it makes us complicit in the erosion of any rights or remedies afforded to us because of those definitions.

So I won’t do it.

It sounds like you’ve been through a lot and I’m sorry for your struggles but you say I hate everything about how I was born - this, IMO is the thing that needs further addressing, not your trauma response to it.

Sorry if thay want clear - I mean what is the difference between a male pretending to be a transwoman and a male who actually is a transwoman? And how can we tell?

Women are okay to be cautious about predatory men, yes? So tell us how we can distinguish between a true and a false transwoman, please. Thanks.

I’m not sure someone like you can read, but no, I am a straight biological female

There are a number of trans people saying they are cis and female so I don’t think it’s unreasonable for harold to check

And it would be jolly handy if you practiced what you preached, be kind and all that…

And when I say 'We' you can apply that either to individual women risk assessing for themselves or to society as a whole. What us the metric test or criteria by which we can sort true trans women from those pretending to be trans?

Not to mention who is going to stand at the doorway of each female space and check whether this is a genuine TW or not?

And then what do we do about people like Karen White who are genuinely TW, but have left a trail of extremely damaged, injured women in their wake through sex offending? What does the person on the door do then?

And what are we going to do about the trail of female people left without any space, services or resources at all because they cannot use the mixed sex space that the lovely and sincere TW are using? They're tax payers, they're covered by words like inclusion and kindness too, those words aren't just for males. What do we do with them now that males have removed their access?

Ok so I'm not up on the whole pronoun sex or gender definitions and quite honestly I'm making no effort to find out because ultimately I don't care enough. I do understand people may feel they're born in the wrong body and that must be awful but until you have a sex change if you have a penis you're male and if you have a vagina you're female. What does make me angry is having to define myself as a Cis woman or a person who menstruates no I'm just a woman and I'm sorry but you are not.

The trans women I have met are some of the most lovely people who have faced incredible adversity.

I am sure they are. However, so what? They are still demanding something from others that they feel entitled to.

They may never understand the struggles of women in the way you all for some reason are concerned with, but they'll go through struggles more severe than I'll ever know.

Thank you for acknowledging this.

OF COURSE, they need their OWN protections. I have rarely come across someone posting on MN that did not support them having protection for their own discrimination.

It seems that it is you who do not understand what is at stake here for women and children.

I open my arms to them.

That’s nice.

I find all of your insecurity staggering.

I find your ignorance staggering and dangerous to women. Women are already being harmed and you are choosing to ignore it and to persist in trying to pressure others to ignore it. You are not being kind here. You are complicit in the harm being done at policy and legislative level.

By calling someone a "woman" when they biologically are otherwise isn't signing myself up for something.

And that is where you are wrong. This argument has already been used by activists. Particularly in the area of sport.

That you don’t know this is your own issue.

I get that you are so steeped in righteousness that you cannot see it or admit that it is happening.

Here are to active threads where the repercussions of ‘just being nice’ has led. If you only read these superficially too, you will miss the part where the swimmer declares how they are completely supported by their team mates, who a few have now stated publicly that all female team mates have in fact, complained and been told to STFU. They won’t say anything publicly because they are in danger of losing scholarships and team positions. Nice eh?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4414643-Penn-s-Lia-Thomas-breaks-200-500-Free-records-in-meet-with-Princeton-Cornell

And if you only read this one superficially, or with the intent of not believing how serious this is for any female who needs single spaces, then you are determined to ignore the needs of rape victims. I have pasted the link started at the victim’s, Sarah’s, reply but it is worth reading from the start.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a4412984-A-woman-driven-out-of-her-therapy-group-by-a-trans-womans-presence?msgid=112862936#112862936

But wait… do I see a ‘well they are the one with the issue so they should be excluded’? Like we have not seen that from the ‘be kind’ brigade before.

If people are genuinely scared rather than this superficial anger these "feminists" are spouting, I am sorry!

It is you who has the superficial understanding here. It is you ‘spouting’ crap on the internet without actually looking beyond that glittering surface to see what has already started to happen.

Please tell us, how many women and how many children are good collateral damage in your heart. 1, 5, 100, 1000?
x = n+1 is usually the answer.

Yet you are determined to ignore the harms. You are effectively calling us scared, pearl clutchers. And we have seen it all before.

You should see some of the attempts by posters using ‘prude’ and ‘pearl clutchers’ and what safeguarding principles they are determined are ignored. To benefit the very people you are prioritising above women and children.

The world moves quickly, but we'll move with it.

You know the saying ‘the more things change, the more they stay the same’ (paraphrasing as I can’t be arsed to go and copy and paste).

That is very true in this regard.

Misogyny is like that. It finds a way to perpetuate itself within society. And finds well meaning allies to do it.