Common courtesy, a non-malicious question from a transgender person

[WhiteFlagHeldAloft]

Hello,

I wanted to ask a question that perhaps some of you may have an answer for. This is not intended to be malicious in any way, or to incite a flame war.

I am another person among many who identifies as transgender. My chromosomes are XY, I lived out my childhood and adolescence as a boy and began taking estrogen and testosterone suppressors at age 18. I identify as a woman and ask that others respect me in that identity. I am in a relationship with a woman who identifies as a lesbian, she was born and has lived her entire life as a woman.

I feel the need to clarify who I am before asking my question as the answer to this question is very relevant to me. I rarely leave me and my partners home, and without fail avoid any kind of sex-segregated environment as much as I can. I work from home, so don't have to do much there. I am not a part of any activism. I am not a vocal member of any kind of community, and avoid social media like a plague ridden rat. I have only ever engaged in sexual contact with my present partner, and for fear that I would not be accepted by her I was never the one to initiate such contact. I understand and uphold consent as a universal necessity, particularly as I have experienced sexual violence myself as an adult.

Alright, that's me. There's a lot more to me than that, but for the purposes of the topic at hand I feel its relevant to state the above.

Why is it okay to not be respectful of my wishes with regards to my identity and how am I spoken to? Why is a simple request regarding language when talking to me such an unreasonable demand? Is it not a common courtesy to be respectful towards someone who is being respectful of you? Whenever I mention that I am transgender and was not born a woman, a lot of gender critical people i encounter immediately start referring to me as a man even when they had been referring to me as a woman before. Over the years and pre pandemic I used to occasionally frequent LGBT spaces and still frequent some private LGBT groups online.

I'm not claiming anything about my biology or genetics or trying to argue that ive somehow changed my genetic makeup. I'm upfront about who I am. I have no recourse in situations where someone just decides to remind me in every sentence of how I was born. It might seem stupid, trivial, ludicrous even that it hurts me but it does. I am very aware of how I was born. I am very aware that I am different. I hate everything about how I was born. To be reminded of that constantly, sometimes even aggressively is mentally and emotionally exhausting. I don't understand why, its not as though its so hard to refer to me respectfully. You don't even have to agree with me, you can think I'm crazy or insane or delusional or whatever else. But at the end of the day its still a slight change in how you speak to me. Benign, and inconsequential to you maybe but to me it isn't.

Theres so much hatred in this discussion I feel like its become so polarized to that point that the lives of unrelated individual people are being dragged through the mud for no reason. I don't want to change your opinions on my identity or convince you of anything. I dont want to hurt anyone or make anyone uncomfortable. I just want to be allowed to exist and engage with other people who will respect me. That's all.

So, to reiterate, why is it okay to just outright not afford me common courtesy? Why is it encouraged, even endorsed, by many gender critical people to not give me that respect? I havent done anything to gender critical people. Im not even involved in any kind of activism or social media. I've been dragged into this unwillingly. I just want to live my life and feel free to frequent LGBT spaces where I won't be harassed by virtue of my very existence and nothing at all to do with the content of my character.

@WhiteFlagHeldAloft:

What do you identify as, a woman or a transwoman?

If you are identifying as a woman then I actually find that disrespectful to. Woman is not an identity it is a cold, hard reality for those born female.

Identify as a transwoman which is what you are, not disrespectful.

I'm afraid I am a little sceptical of your claim that everyone you meet who you perceive as gender critical suddenly starts being rude and disrespectful to you once you inform them you are a transwoman.

I would refer to you by whatever name you use, but what other forms of language are you requiring people to use about you or to you? Are you expecting women to change the use of their language around you when referring to themselves by adding a prefix to the word woman? Are you expecting women to change the way they talk about purely woman's issues so you feel included?

Happy to use preferred pronouns. You'll see a number of people lying or misrepresenting the GC position. We do have a problem with using preferred pronouns for individuals convicted of sexual or violent crimes and you will find threads about that.

I always try and use someone preferred pronouns and name. (I do slip up occasionally with a friend who uses they/them as I've known them as she/her for 20 years).
In return I expect not to be referred to as 'cis' (am not accusing OP of this)

I mean, it's true if the threads about the sex offenders calling themselves women are included

If (unlikely) OP is one of the sex offenders we've called men then I make no apology. I don't think rapist who rock up to court in a wig are genuine transsexuals. I think the ability to say that is crucial to the public policy discussion.

Even then MN are leery about letting us call them men. There was a thread the other day about a dog-raping pedophile which was deleted because we didn't respect 'her' pronouns.

Hurtful though it is for you personally, many of us cannot agree that males can become female, or males can be lesbians. It's an ideology that harms women. It is hurting us OP. That's why some can't play the game.

In real life I'd play along of course. Partly to be kind but mainly because I'd be scared not to (there are a lot of very angry violent people in your movement). You benefit from their general terrorism on the internet, whether you partake or not!

These threads are always pointless though and I assume it's mainly to get screenshots for Twitter.

I do my best to respect pronouns although I admit that I occasionally unintentionally slip up - It takes a lot of effort to gaslight myself and police my language

Me too. I have a spld, I, find it incredibly difficult to hold the pronouns in my memory and do the necessary processing to apply them to the right person at the right time. Telling me it’s a simple easy thing is a fucking insult. I’ll do my dammed best. But like matching names to faces, with the best will in the world. I can make no promises.

These threads are always pointless though and I assume it's mainly to get screenshots for Twitter.

That's what I suspect this thread and why I'm not playing.

It’s not about you. Not everything is about every individual’s wants and needs. It’s about protecting the erasure of women. What don’t you understand?

this thread is

I’ll bite. I would not refer to you as ‘she’. Because that is the pronoun for a biological women. But nether would I refer to you as ‘he’.

I would refer to you as your chosen name. And I would always choose to use your name rather than a pronoun to avoid a situation where either of us is uncomfortable.

I have witnessed a statement to help a transgender friend to change their name from a ‘traditional’ male name to ‘traditional’ female one. I did this as I believed that they, as everyone, should be able to choose a name that they can relate to.

But if you were to try to insist on me using your chosen pronoun then that crosses the boundary into policing my language, to dictating what I must say to you, and that I do not agree with.

I think the vast majority of GC feminists think it's appropriate be courteous, as a starting point, to everyone and to use prefered pronouns when talking with someone and to refer to them using those pronouns in most group situations.

I think there is some concern about pronoun usage hiding actual sex in reports and discussions. And there is a lot of concern about having to "declare" pronouns, especially in work settings.

And there are certainly some feminists and some posters who are anti-using preferred pronouns in any setting (there were the "pronouns are like rohypnol" threads, for instance).

So I don't think it's reasonable to say pronouns are the least of the concerns of posters on this board, but it's a misunderstanding to think that because posters are bothered by the above issues at a societal level that they would generally be discourteous, without cause, to someone face to face simple because that person was transgender.

Let's start with the position that we both treat each other with courtesy, which includes not requiring me to say things I don't believe or agree with because you want me to - I am not requiring this of you - and includes respecting that some female people need female only spaces and sex based rights because their identity is sex based.

Live and let live and we'll all get along. Require that I put your needs, wishes, feelings and rights above mine and that you expect a high standard of care and consideration from me that won't be reciprocating while you remove things from me that you don't value so don't see why I do? No. I won't be rude to you but I won't be co operating.

What @Artichokeleaves said.

And as above: I would not use a pronoun to you that you have let me know you don't want. But nor will I use a pronoun that makes me uncomfortable to say and which I can't agree with. The answer is, as above, I will gladly use your name or reframe my speech to avoid either of us being made uncomfortable.

This: I'm not claiming anything about my biology or genetics or trying to argue that ive somehow changed my genetic makeup. I'm upfront about who I am.

Contradicts this:

Whenever I mention that I am transgender and was not born a woman, a lot of gender critical people i encounter immediately start referring to me as a man even when they had been referring to me as a woman before.

and this:

You don't even have to agree with me, you can think I'm crazy or insane or delusional or whatever else.

and this:

I don't want to change your opinions on my identity or convince you of anything.

You do want your identity validated, you do want others to treat you as you see yourself.

It’s not about you

yeah this

I am GC but just reading what you’ve written, welcome. Please PM me if you wish. You’re doing amazingly. Thanks.

I will happily use your preferred pronouns and chosen name.

That does not mean I have to believe you are a woman. I do not believe it and cannot make myself believe it because I know humans cannot change sex.

The reason that the women on this board might seem quite militant about this is because there are transactivists who are demanding, in loud, aggressive, hateful terms, that women MUST believe that males can be women and allow them access to all women’s spaces even though there is an ever growing body of evidence that this has implications for women’s safety.

Gender critical women are not your problem. It’s the aggressive hate filled misogynistic TRAs who have created this dreadful situation who you need to take this up with.

I think it's ok for women to feel uncomfortable with the mantra "transwomen are women".
I also think it's ok to allow women space to discuss why they are uncomfortable with that.

I don't think it's fair to come into one of the very few spaces where women are allowed to discuss such ideologies with proclamations like "I have a penis, be nicer".

If I were interact with you 8 would use your chosen name and pronoun as a courtesy, and respect your identity as a trans woman. I would not call you a woman or a lesbian, because those words means things and (in the words of Allison Bailey) are taken.

I think GC people should it be viewed as one homogenous group, same with the Trans Community.
I would happily use your preferred pronouns. I would hope you would happily not refer to me as Cis. Or a cervix haver etc.

Respect is a two way thing.

not be viewed as one homogenous group

OP, there's no point even asking this lot. They'll act shocked! Shocked! that anyone would ever suggest they wouldn't be courteous or that they're anti-trans and then they'll go straight back to spewing ignorance and hate about 5 seconds later.

Sadly, OP, people like this come here to present themselves as the 'trans point of view' in a relentlessly hostile and disingenuous manner. Personally I think the stereotypes they put accross (that trans people all think the same, that they are all suicidal, that they are all vulnerable and weak, etc) are far more transphobic than the views of GC feminists.

I don't share your ideological faith so I don't see any need to follow the rules you live by. That doesn't mean being a jerk, but it certainly doesn't mean lying in order to make you feel better at the expense of my own mental health. I would use your chosen name happily, depending on circumstances. I'm with Babdock and Artichoke. I won't be forced to participate in a charade.

I was asked twice to be a god parent and declined twice. I wasn't being and meanie I just can't say words I disagree with.