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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Common courtesy, a non-malicious question from a transgender person

544 replies

WhiteFlagHeldAloft · 24/12/2021 16:16

Hello,

I wanted to ask a question that perhaps some of you may have an answer for. This is not intended to be malicious in any way, or to incite a flame war.

I am another person among many who identifies as transgender. My chromosomes are XY, I lived out my childhood and adolescence as a boy and began taking estrogen and testosterone suppressors at age 18. I identify as a woman and ask that others respect me in that identity. I am in a relationship with a woman who identifies as a lesbian, she was born and has lived her entire life as a woman.

I feel the need to clarify who I am before asking my question as the answer to this question is very relevant to me. I rarely leave me and my partners home, and without fail avoid any kind of sex-segregated environment as much as I can. I work from home, so don't have to do much there. I am not a part of any activism. I am not a vocal member of any kind of community, and avoid social media like a plague ridden rat. I have only ever engaged in sexual contact with my present partner, and for fear that I would not be accepted by her I was never the one to initiate such contact. I understand and uphold consent as a universal necessity, particularly as I have experienced sexual violence myself as an adult.

Alright, that's me. There's a lot more to me than that, but for the purposes of the topic at hand I feel its relevant to state the above.

Why is it okay to not be respectful of my wishes with regards to my identity and how am I spoken to? Why is a simple request regarding language when talking to me such an unreasonable demand? Is it not a common courtesy to be respectful towards someone who is being respectful of you? Whenever I mention that I am transgender and was not born a woman, a lot of gender critical people i encounter immediately start referring to me as a man even when they had been referring to me as a woman before. Over the years and pre pandemic I used to occasionally frequent LGBT spaces and still frequent some private LGBT groups online.

I'm not claiming anything about my biology or genetics or trying to argue that ive somehow changed my genetic makeup. I'm upfront about who I am. I have no recourse in situations where someone just decides to remind me in every sentence of how I was born. It might seem stupid, trivial, ludicrous even that it hurts me but it does. I am very aware of how I was born. I am very aware that I am different. I hate everything about how I was born. To be reminded of that constantly, sometimes even aggressively is mentally and emotionally exhausting. I don't understand why, its not as though its so hard to refer to me respectfully. You don't even have to agree with me, you can think I'm crazy or insane or delusional or whatever else. But at the end of the day its still a slight change in how you speak to me. Benign, and inconsequential to you maybe but to me it isn't.

Theres so much hatred in this discussion I feel like its become so polarized to that point that the lives of unrelated individual people are being dragged through the mud for no reason. I don't want to change your opinions on my identity or convince you of anything. I dont want to hurt anyone or make anyone uncomfortable. I just want to be allowed to exist and engage with other people who will respect me. That's all.

So, to reiterate, why is it okay to just outright not afford me common courtesy? Why is it encouraged, even endorsed, by many gender critical people to not give me that respect? I havent done anything to gender critical people. Im not even involved in any kind of activism or social media. I've been dragged into this unwillingly. I just want to live my life and feel free to frequent LGBT spaces where I won't be harassed by virtue of my very existence and nothing at all to do with the content of my character.

OP posts:
Datun · 27/12/2021 12:56

Yes, of course I know this happens. But this is MEN doing it. Not trans women. Your issue is with MEN pretending to be a trans woman to get access to vulnerable women.

I couldn't care less if a man is trans or pretending to be trans. I don't want any man in my female space. I don't want to get undressed in the same space as my father-in-law, or my son's best mate, either. And they are both perfectly delightful.

The way a man thinks about himself, in his head, is entirely irrelevant to me in that context. Why should I care?

The very fact that a man demands entry to my space, and access to the women in it, for validation and against my will, shows me that he is already happy to violate my boundaries.

The arrogance that men think they can just invent a whole set of arbitrary rules so that they can force women to grant them access is patriarchy in action.

Sonex · 27/12/2021 12:57

What is the point of starting a post like this, like whiteflagheldaloft has done, seemingly asking a heartfelt question, and then never coming back to it? So disingenuous and clearly just to harvest quotes and be able to say on twitter, look how mean the feminists of MN are? It really is pathetic, where is the debate?

Helleofabore · 27/12/2021 13:02

But ghosting is all they have at this point. Some posters do come back and we get some interesting evidence and discussion. Others don’t come back because they claim to be ‘piled on’ or abused when it is people disagreeing with them and responding to their sneering denigrations thrown out from the first of that poster’s posts.

Others simply feel their job prodding and jeering has been done. You will notice that some posters plop a shaming post on many threads and don’t respond.

Either way, whether pp respond or not, we know that the many readers appreciate the links, the statistics, any evidence really to help them formulate their own views.

And often seeing the tropish jibes in action gives them a live demo of the efforts relying purely on emotional manipulation. And how to counter it.

‘Educate yourself’ means different things to different people. And how many of us arrived here to ‘educate ourselves’ and stayed?

Artichokeleaves · 27/12/2021 13:05

The fundamental sexism is hard to miss.

And yet the whole point of arguing for males in female spaces is that sex isn't supposed to be a 'thing'. The actions and values really don't match the words at all: its always deeply rooted in binary sex based thinking.

Jaxhog · 27/12/2021 13:14

@GrimDamnFanjo

Well I'm gender critical and happy to respect your pronouns. We're not one huge monolith Borg type thing so I'm not sure why you think all GC women would be rude to you?
Me too. I have many trans friends, and we respect and like each other.

I think what many women hate is the idea that they now don't matter as much as transwomen do. But this more about the Trans 'movement' than it is about individuals.

VestofAbsurdity · 27/12/2021 13:19

The ghosting, snidey, snarky attempts at put downs, emotional blackmail and abuse are all they have.

Ask for facts and evidence and they flounce.

Helleofabore · 27/12/2021 13:21

Maybe mother should also read this thread.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4433483-Thank-You-from-the-Lurkers

To understand the power of good evidence and not sneering.

EricCartmansGoatee · 27/12/2021 13:23

Ask for facts and evidence and they flounce.

Facts and evidence are sooo last year darling.

Grin
Floisme · 27/12/2021 13:23

I'll tell you what I find discourteous: issuing invitations to womanhood as if it's some kind of private members club that someone can join through personal recommendation. It's not a character reference, it's biology.

Waitwhat23 · 27/12/2021 13:27

There was an exchange on another thread the other day when a regular poster mentioned a few statistics regarding women in prison and was hit by a particularily sneering, snidey comment along the lines of 'how ridiculous! Where did you get those from, the Beano?!'. And the poster just calmly, without comment, listed all the links to the evidence to back up her statements. The Beano commenter went very quiet after that.

It was glorious. And showed very clearly the difference in the quality of the argument. On one hand, evidenced well argued discussion. On the other, hyperbole and shrieks of 'you're all just so meeean! Be kiiiiind!'.

EricCartmansGoatee · 27/12/2021 13:32

@Floisme

I'll tell you what I find discourteous: issuing invitations to womanhood as if it's some kind of private members club that someone can join through personal recommendation. It's not a character reference, it's biology.
Yes, with no regard to the women who do understand the importance of sex based protections and do not want them given away. How is it that some women, who have no clue, think they have the right to throw it all away on behalf of all women. And the men, who equally feel that they can step in, mansplain to women where they have got it all wrong (even with no skin in the game) and issue out those same invitations to other men. Fucking outrageous.
VestofAbsurdity · 27/12/2021 13:36

I think what many women hate is the idea that they now don't matter as much as transwomen do. But this more about the Trans 'movement' than it is about individuals.

I don't know if you meant to be so patronising, I don't hate the idea I don't matter as much as TW, it's not an idea, it's reality, TW are male, we live in a patriarchy.

It's not hate, it opposition to an ideology that seeks to destroy women's rights to safety, dignity, privacy and fairness.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/12/2021 13:43

The trans women I have met are some of the most lovely people who have faced incredible adversity.

Seriously, why all the fawning? We get that you like and care about your friends. I like my friends too and some of them have been through difficult circumstances, but I don't expect that everyone else will agree that they are the most lovely people alive or have "faced incredible adversity". Its an odd thing with self proclaimed "cis women" trans allies that you all have to do this weird OTT gushing about how great your MTF trans friends are. Not sure who you think is finding it a compelling argument for anything at all.

Thelnebriati · 27/12/2021 13:44

I think what many women hate is the idea that they now don't matter as much as transwomen do.

What a bizarre thing to post! Either a group has human rights or it doesn't. Women dont expect to ''matter'', or be centered; we do expect to be able to keep the rights we have literally had to fight for.

Jabbawasarollingstone · 27/12/2021 13:49

I don't know what a woman is, apart from the obvious biological make-up of one. I am a woman, but I am not "feminine" iyswim. I suppose some would say I'm NB but I'm definitely not. NB is such a muddled term steeped in gender stereotypes. I don't identify as anything, I don't "live as" anything, I just am. This is why I don't understand gender dysphoria. Why would you believe you want to change gender, and why? The concept baffles me.

But I have worked with trans people and they've been my customers too. I default to "they" if not speaking to trans people directly. If I am speaking to the customer/colleague directly I don't need to use pronouns. I use your name, if you give it, and I treat you with respect. I don't need to know who you love or anything else about your personal life. It's none of my business. 99% of my interactions with transgender people involve no reason to go there.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/12/2021 13:50

And it would be jolly handy if you practiced what you preached, be kind and all that…

Wouldn't it. Why is it that so many #bekind adherents just aren't very kind to women or other women? Kindness appears to be in short supply for women.

Sonex · 27/12/2021 13:54

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VestofAbsurdity · 27/12/2021 13:54

@Ereshkigalangcleg

The trans women I have met are some of the most lovely people who have faced incredible adversity.

Seriously, why all the fawning? We get that you like and care about your friends. I like my friends too and some of them have been through difficult circumstances, but I don't expect that everyone else will agree that they are the most lovely people alive or have "faced incredible adversity". Its an odd thing with self proclaimed "cis women" trans allies that you all have to do this weird OTT gushing about how great your MTF trans friends are. Not sure who you think is finding it a compelling argument for anything at all.

I wonder that too, always the vomit inducing gushing with phrases like open my arms.

For me it says to the patriarchy: Look at me, how nice and kind I am, pat me on the head and validate my submissiveness, pretty please, I'm not like them other women, hurt them not me.

The fact is they will be dropped faster than shit off a shiny shovel when they've served their purpose.

ArabellaScott · 27/12/2021 14:06

On one hand, evidenced well argued discussion. On the other, hyperbole and shrieks of 'you're all just so meeean! Be kiiiiind!'.

'Why can't you stupid bitches shut up and be kind?'

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/12/2021 14:07

Vice absolutely bang on.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/12/2021 14:08

Sorry I meant to say this post by Vest is bang on:

I wonder that too, always the vomit inducing gushing with phrases like open my arms.

For me it says to the patriarchy: Look at me, how nice and kind I am, pat me on the head and validate my submissiveness, pretty please, I'm not like them other women, hurt them not me.

The fact is they will be dropped faster than shit off a shiny shovel when they've served their purpose.

ArabellaScott · 27/12/2021 14:09

@EricCartmansGoatee

Ask for facts and evidence and they flounce.

Facts and evidence are sooo last year darling.

Grin

Purgatory told me this is called 'fact shaming', now and it's considered hostile to offer evidence in support of an argument.
ArabellaScott · 27/12/2021 14:12

@Sonex

What is the point of starting a post like this, like whiteflagheldaloft has done, seemingly asking a heartfelt question, and then never coming back to it? So disingenuous and clearly just to harvest quotes and be able to say on twitter, look how mean the feminists of MN are? It really is pathetic, where is the debate?
I was wondering this. I think it might be more an expressive post, a howl of outrage directed at the women OP is so angry with. Otherwise, exactly, what is the fucking point?

I don't know, though, perhaps some lurkers feel that OP has won them round and they are far happier to share their spaces with all males from now on?

Helleofabore · 27/12/2021 14:16

Well hey, we get told we are kink shaming for pointing out that GG leaders posting their BDSM pics on full public access. So, I am ok to ‘fact shame’.

In fact, anyone who does not have facts to back up their arguments should well feel ashamed.

They have been duped via emotional manipulation and seek to spread that around. And they think they are ‘righteous’ and ‘open armed’?

Helleofabore · 27/12/2021 14:18

Anyway, I live in hope that mother’ will return. I am setting up an arabella* style vigil. Waiting for pretty much the same evidence to be posted that she has been waiting for accords threads.

So nothing new. Just the after Christmas vigil.