Common courtesy, a non-malicious question from a transgender person

[WhiteFlagHeldAloft]

Hello,

I wanted to ask a question that perhaps some of you may have an answer for. This is not intended to be malicious in any way, or to incite a flame war.

I am another person among many who identifies as transgender. My chromosomes are XY, I lived out my childhood and adolescence as a boy and began taking estrogen and testosterone suppressors at age 18. I identify as a woman and ask that others respect me in that identity. I am in a relationship with a woman who identifies as a lesbian, she was born and has lived her entire life as a woman.

I feel the need to clarify who I am before asking my question as the answer to this question is very relevant to me. I rarely leave me and my partners home, and without fail avoid any kind of sex-segregated environment as much as I can. I work from home, so don't have to do much there. I am not a part of any activism. I am not a vocal member of any kind of community, and avoid social media like a plague ridden rat. I have only ever engaged in sexual contact with my present partner, and for fear that I would not be accepted by her I was never the one to initiate such contact. I understand and uphold consent as a universal necessity, particularly as I have experienced sexual violence myself as an adult.

Alright, that's me. There's a lot more to me than that, but for the purposes of the topic at hand I feel its relevant to state the above.

Why is it okay to not be respectful of my wishes with regards to my identity and how am I spoken to? Why is a simple request regarding language when talking to me such an unreasonable demand? Is it not a common courtesy to be respectful towards someone who is being respectful of you? Whenever I mention that I am transgender and was not born a woman, a lot of gender critical people i encounter immediately start referring to me as a man even when they had been referring to me as a woman before. Over the years and pre pandemic I used to occasionally frequent LGBT spaces and still frequent some private LGBT groups online.

I'm not claiming anything about my biology or genetics or trying to argue that ive somehow changed my genetic makeup. I'm upfront about who I am. I have no recourse in situations where someone just decides to remind me in every sentence of how I was born. It might seem stupid, trivial, ludicrous even that it hurts me but it does. I am very aware of how I was born. I am very aware that I am different. I hate everything about how I was born. To be reminded of that constantly, sometimes even aggressively is mentally and emotionally exhausting. I don't understand why, its not as though its so hard to refer to me respectfully. You don't even have to agree with me, you can think I'm crazy or insane or delusional or whatever else. But at the end of the day its still a slight change in how you speak to me. Benign, and inconsequential to you maybe but to me it isn't.

Theres so much hatred in this discussion I feel like its become so polarized to that point that the lives of unrelated individual people are being dragged through the mud for no reason. I don't want to change your opinions on my identity or convince you of anything. I dont want to hurt anyone or make anyone uncomfortable. I just want to be allowed to exist and engage with other people who will respect me. That's all.

So, to reiterate, why is it okay to just outright not afford me common courtesy? Why is it encouraged, even endorsed, by many gender critical people to not give me that respect? I havent done anything to gender critical people. Im not even involved in any kind of activism or social media. I've been dragged into this unwillingly. I just want to live my life and feel free to frequent LGBT spaces where I won't be harassed by virtue of my very existence and nothing at all to do with the content of my character.

Yep. Barbie Kardashian is legally female, I believe, grc and all. And Karen White, Katie Dolatowski are real transwomen, whatever their grc status. I believe them when they say they are transwomen. It's certainly not up to me to gatekeep their gender identity.

It's not OK OP and it's becoming a very hate filled and devisive topic online which will be filtering out into the real world. People telling you to change who you hang out with etc are just ignorant. The internet gives people the skewed view that people are more accepting than they are.

I'll add: important to remember that White injured (severely) several women by sex offending whilst using their access to female only spaces by being a TW.

Also to add: what does the person on the door do if they feel the male in front of them is not sincerely TW (or someone's lovely friend) and the male says 'I'm going in anyway and you can't stop me because I can?'

Yes, of course I know this happens. But this is MEN doing it. Not trans women. Your issue is with MEN pretending to be a trans woman to get access to vulnerable women

Transwomen are men. They wouldn't be trans otherwise would they.

And you seem to have forgotten that if a transwoman is a woman if they say so. Acceptance without exception.

Sounds like you're saying that only the pure people that don't do bad things can be allowed to be transwomen. Otherwise they're not real trans. Are you gatekeeping who should and shouldn't be allowed to enter womanhood?

I suggest you check your thinking. You sound like a bigot darling.

@motheroffour824

The issue of mixed sex/gender neutral spaces is a problem regarding men, not trans women. If someone has legally transitioned and their birth certificate is now altered, you have no leg to stand on. They are a woman now.

Please link up the evidence that has convinced you that males who transition have a lower rate of committing sex crime than other males.

Shall we link you up with the hand disaggregated statistics showing how many transitioned males are currently in UK prisons for sex crimes? They were presented in court recently so, has been accepted as evidence.

But YOUR reading list must include some powerful evidence to have convinced you otherwise. Please link it up so we know if your assertions are based on credible evidence or just emotional manipulation.

@motheroffour824

If you're not 'genuinely' scared that this ideology's political agenda fights for things like giving rapists access to incarcerated women are part of their sentence, then you're either callous behind belief or haven't been paying attention.

Yes, of course I know this happens. But this is MEN doing it. Not trans women. Your issue is with MEN pretending to be a trans woman to get access to vulnerable women.

Ffs. The women trapped in prison with rapists don't give a flying fuck how they 'identify.'

And, in case it's not clear, all transwomen are male. It's a condition that has to be met before they can call themselves a transwoman.

The issue is men.

All men have the potential to behave in ways tha are typically male.

Whether they are in trousers or a skirt, whether they call themselves Patrick or Patricia.

Whether they have surgery or change their bodies or not.

Any why should it be up to women who make space for these men? Why can't men sort themselves out? Why can't they campaign to be safe in male toilets, changing rooms and prisons?

We aren't supposed to be on their planet to be some sort of protective blanket around these men.

I'm so bored with men telling us to behave and do what men want. Fuck that shit.

Either some or all of the rapists, sex offenders and predators who are being called “she” by the courts and the press are lying about being trans, and you have to acknowledge that such dangerous males would lie and use self-ID to manipulate the system, therefore concerns around safety are valid

OR

these predators are genuinely trans and you have to acknowledge that males who identify as trans are proportionately just as much a risk to females as males who don’t, meaning concerns around safety are valid.

@WhiteFlagHeldAloft

Hello,

I wanted to ask a question that perhaps some of you may have an answer for. This is not intended to be malicious in any way, or to incite a flame war.

I am another person among many who identifies as transgender. My chromosomes are XY, I lived out my childhood and adolescence as a boy and began taking estrogen and testosterone suppressors at age 18. I identify as a woman and ask that others respect me in that identity. I am in a relationship with a woman who identifies as a lesbian, she was born and has lived her entire life as a woman.

I feel the need to clarify who I am before asking my question as the answer to this question is very relevant to me. I rarely leave me and my partners home, and without fail avoid any kind of sex-segregated environment as much as I can. I work from home, so don't have to do much there. I am not a part of any activism. I am not a vocal member of any kind of community, and avoid social media like a plague ridden rat. I have only ever engaged in sexual contact with my present partner, and for fear that I would not be accepted by her I was never the one to initiate such contact. I understand and uphold consent as a universal necessity, particularly as I have experienced sexual violence myself as an adult.

Alright, that's me. There's a lot more to me than that, but for the purposes of the topic at hand I feel its relevant to state the above.

Why is it okay to not be respectful of my wishes with regards to my identity and how am I spoken to? Why is a simple request regarding language when talking to me such an unreasonable demand? Is it not a common courtesy to be respectful towards someone who is being respectful of you? Whenever I mention that I am transgender and was not born a woman, a lot of gender critical people i encounter immediately start referring to me as a man even when they had been referring to me as a woman before. Over the years and pre pandemic I used to occasionally frequent LGBT spaces and still frequent some private LGBT groups online.

I'm not claiming anything about my biology or genetics or trying to argue that ive somehow changed my genetic makeup. I'm upfront about who I am. I have no recourse in situations where someone just decides to remind me in every sentence of how I was born. It might seem stupid, trivial, ludicrous even that it hurts me but it does. I am very aware of how I was born. I am very aware that I am different. I hate everything about how I was born. To be reminded of that constantly, sometimes even aggressively is mentally and emotionally exhausting. I don't understand why, its not as though its so hard to refer to me respectfully. You don't even have to agree with me, you can think I'm crazy or insane or delusional or whatever else. But at the end of the day its still a slight change in how you speak to me. Benign, and inconsequential to you maybe but to me it isn't.

Theres so much hatred in this discussion I feel like its become so polarized to that point that the lives of unrelated individual people are being dragged through the mud for no reason. I don't want to change your opinions on my identity or convince you of anything. I dont want to hurt anyone or make anyone uncomfortable. I just want to be allowed to exist and engage with other people who will respect me. That's all.

So, to reiterate, why is it okay to just outright not afford me common courtesy? Why is it encouraged, even endorsed, by many gender critical people to not give me that respect? I havent done anything to gender critical people. Im not even involved in any kind of activism or social media. I've been dragged into this unwillingly. I just want to live my life and feel free to frequent LGBT spaces where I won't be harassed by virtue of my very existence and nothing at all to do with the content of my character.

without having read 5 pages of the thread, and going from this post, id say that people like you and many other trans identifying people are also suffering due to the actions of many transactivists. There really wasnt much conflict in the slightest between transexuals and feminists before the huge push towards self ID and the accessing of womens spaces and sports by the self ID'd and the mega push to accept Queer-Theory as fact. In terms of ordinary people just living their lives, noone gave a shit - well certainly not the feminists, traditionally we were allies against the status quo. Its this newer push that has actually caused so much friction that its made people actually start looking at the whole phenomenon in a much deeper way and with much more of a critical lens. Of course thats not nice for people who just want to be left alone, but I think youre pointing your fingers at the wrong people

Yes, of course I know this happens. But this is MEN doing it. Not trans women. Your issue is with MEN pretending to be a trans woman to get access to vulnerable women.

Again, link up your evidence that transitioning decreases the rate of committing sex crime.

Plus, yes. You understand there is also an issue about MEN. Those who use the loopholes to full advantage.

They say they ARE trans. Who the fuck are you to tell them they are not? That is very transphobic. Anyone that denies someone their identity, even one where they are only identifying as a woman part of the time, is transphobic.

@Artichokeleaves

Transwomen are male. There is no difference between a sincere lovely TW and any other male when they walk into a women's space - they have immediately stopped it from being a single sex space, their presence excludes some females from any space at all, and as one male person their needs are perceived as outweighing every single female who ever has or ever will use that space.

This is just flat out male supremacist. Your argument really is that this group of male people are so special and vulnerable that females as a sex class must be subordinated to them. No.

Not to mention: there is no way to gatekeep whether a male entering a female space is a TW at all, never mind a lovely one or one who intends to do what Karen White did to multiple women using their access on demand to female only spaces. If it's any male, it's all males. This whole 'but predatory men are a different group' is nonsense, isn't it? The only way to tell is whether or not a woman is left damaged when the male leaves the space he chose to enter.

It's staggering how subhuman you seem to think females are compared to males.

It really is staggering isn’t it?

@motheroffour824

The issue of mixed sex/gender neutral spaces is a problem regarding men, not trans women. If someone has legally transitioned and their birth certificate is now altered, you have no leg to stand on. They are a woman now.

Both the GRA 2004 and the Equality Act 2010 have exceptions based on biological sex.

There is a distinction between legal sex and biological sex that is recognised in law.

If trans people have little understanding or interest in issues that affect women but not themselves do you think it wise to cede women’s positions of influence to these people (so further reducing women’s effective representation in public life) or should we create specific positions for them?

I'm so bored with men telling us to behave and do what men want. Fuck that shit.

Me too. I'm so bored with them trying to create sub categories of themselves, all with different criteria that only applies to them personally, to demand access. The overwhelmingly self serving aspect is so depressing.

No. Just no.

Whenever I mention that I am transgender and was not born a woman, a lot of gender critical people i encounter immediately start referring to me as a man even when they had been referring to me as a woman before.

Why mention you are transgender? There is absolutely no need except in certain medical situations. You didn't transition to be transgender, you transitioned to be a woman. Live your life and be happy.

Actually, a trans woman is allowed to call themselves a mother if they want darling

Ahh! So you are full aware of the effect of ‘just use pronouns’ and be kind.

Yes, transitioned males and transitioned females are now pushing to have other words changed to suit themselves.

Like the bill that required ‘six words’ added to ensure that traumatised females had confidence that the female medical examiner they requested would be provided and would be female. Not ‘identifies as a female’.

And yes, even female is in the asset claim.

Do you understand the roots of Queer Theory and how the acts of destabilising language, science and laws works? You have heard of Michel Foucault haven’t you? If not, look him up. Quite the person you want to be allied with really.

@motheroffour824

If you're not 'genuinely' scared that this ideology's political agenda fights for things like giving rapists access to incarcerated women are part of their sentence, then you're either callous behind belief or haven't been paying attention.

Yes, of course I know this happens. But this is MEN doing it. Not trans women. Your issue is with MEN pretending to be a trans woman to get access to vulnerable women.

There are TW incarcerated with women in the female prison estate some of whom have a GRC some of whom do not, you are not allowed to know which is which because privacy for those with one is paramount apparently, an extra right given to TW that the rest of us don't have.

Secondly, the overwhelming majority of TW in the female prison estate are sex offenders that is those with and without a GRC so do bugger off with this TW are gentle beings who would never do anything wrong or commit a sexual offence because it is bullshit.

Yes it is a males doing it, TW are male it's the qualifying criteria for being a TW.

The overwhelming majority of TW do not have their male genitalia removed, it remains and is fully functional and that is those with and without a GRC, medical intervention to remove the male genitalia is not a requirement for obtaining a GRC.

So, how do you tell whether the male sharing any female only single sex space has a GRC which provides the legal fiction that they have changed sex and is a nice, kind non threatening male, or someone pretending? Are you, like Lalya Moran able to see souls?

@motheroffour824

If you're not 'genuinely' scared that this ideology's political agenda fights for things like giving rapists access to incarcerated women are part of their sentence, then you're either callous behind belief or haven't been paying attention.

Yes, of course I know this happens. But this is MEN doing it. Not trans women. Your issue is with MEN pretending to be a trans woman to get access to vulnerable women.

How can I safely tell which ones are pretending please?

@Helleofabore - I was trying to post a calm response to mother and to work out why these particular kind of posts arouse my hackles so much, but you did it for me. So thanks for an excellent post. And to "branleuse - so true that TRAs are doing immense damage to trans people who are just trying to get on with their lives and that it need never have got to this toxic argument, but do they give a fuck - do they hell!

I especially loved the passive aggressive use of "darling" in that response to me. Very revealing.

And obviously motherof4 knows about the fast growing porn segment of transitioned males masturbating in female toilets on live steaming. Complete with the sounds of children and women in the cubicles besides.

Or… are they not trans either? Or will you use the ‘scale’ argument? It is only a ‘small number’ of these people and not representative of all? Like the crime statistics that you are bound to be posting soon that proves that transitioned males do not commit sex crime at all (apart from the one or two well known ones) and therefore all safeguarding should be suspended for all transitioned males.

Looking forward to those stats, they must be convincing.

@Redlake

Whenever I mention that I am transgender and was not born a woman, a lot of gender critical people i encounter immediately start referring to me as a man even when they had been referring to me as a woman before.

Why mention you are transgender? There is absolutely no need except in certain medical situations. You didn't transition to be transgender, you transitioned to be a woman. Live your life and be happy.

To me, that's clearly a sentence constructed to indicate that the person is always mistaken for a women but still suffers from ongoing discrimination, but only from 'gender critical' women.

@motheroffour824

The trans women I have met are some of the most lovely people who have faced incredible adversity. They may never understand the struggles of women in the way you all for some reason are concerned with, but they'll go through struggles more severe than I'll ever know. I open my arms to them. I find all of your insecurity staggering. By calling someone a "woman" when they biologically are otherwise isn't signing myself up for something. If people are genuinely scared rather than this superficial anger these "feminists" are spouting, I am sorry! The world moves quickly, but we'll move with it.

But this true of most men full stop. I don't think many people believe that the majority of men are violent predators who are only kept at bay by single sex toilets. I know lots and lots of thoroughly decent men, and to my knowledge I don't personally know a single rapist, so why don't we just do away with single sex spaces altogether?

I also know lots of overweight, out of shape, middle aged men- they wouldn't come close to any women's Olympic records, so why not do away with sex segregated sport altogether as well?

I see the OP hasn't returned, then?

What a surprise!

[quote prudencepuffin]**@Helleofabore - I was trying to post a calm response to mother and to work out why these particular kind of posts arouse my hackles so much, but you did it for me. So thanks for an excellent post. And to "branleuse - so true that TRAs are doing immense damage to trans people who are just trying to get on with their lives and that it need never have got to this toxic argument, but do they give a fuck - do they hell![/quote]
You are spot on there prudence. Any transitioned male who doesn’t indicate in some way, even down to just stopping supporting Stonewall, that they are not represented by the extremist trans activists is really complicit. I understand it is not easy because of their precarious mental health but there needs to be some push back, even anonymously.

We know there are many vocal transwomen who support women’s needs for single sex spaces and who understand fundamentally what is happening. We may not agree 100% with them, (or even very much on some issues) but there is plenty of common ground.

@motheroffour824

As a PP eloquently put it: "I don't think many people believe that the majority of men are violent predators who are only kept at bay by single sex toilets. I know lots and lots of thoroughly decent men, and to my knowledge I don't personally know a single rapist, so why don't we just do away with single sex spaces altogether?"

Can you understand this reasoning? I adore so many men in my life.

I still don't think they should be permitted to use women's single sex spaces. Not because I personally think they are a threat, but because the women in that space have no way of knowing whether they are or not, so their presence is inherently inappropriate and unwarranted.

In addition to that, many men women believe to be 'good' aren't. Some friends, relatives and partners thought of as lovely men are in actual fact dangerous. And again, there's no way of identifying them visually.

To allow men access to single sex spaces would set a dangerous precedent. The same goes for trans women, as we cannot know which are safe to be there.

Nobody thinks all trans women are dangerous. Nobody thinks all men are dangerous. Why should one of those two groups have access to women's single sex spaces?