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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Common courtesy, a non-malicious question from a transgender person

544 replies

WhiteFlagHeldAloft · 24/12/2021 16:16

Hello,

I wanted to ask a question that perhaps some of you may have an answer for. This is not intended to be malicious in any way, or to incite a flame war.

I am another person among many who identifies as transgender. My chromosomes are XY, I lived out my childhood and adolescence as a boy and began taking estrogen and testosterone suppressors at age 18. I identify as a woman and ask that others respect me in that identity. I am in a relationship with a woman who identifies as a lesbian, she was born and has lived her entire life as a woman.

I feel the need to clarify who I am before asking my question as the answer to this question is very relevant to me. I rarely leave me and my partners home, and without fail avoid any kind of sex-segregated environment as much as I can. I work from home, so don't have to do much there. I am not a part of any activism. I am not a vocal member of any kind of community, and avoid social media like a plague ridden rat. I have only ever engaged in sexual contact with my present partner, and for fear that I would not be accepted by her I was never the one to initiate such contact. I understand and uphold consent as a universal necessity, particularly as I have experienced sexual violence myself as an adult.

Alright, that's me. There's a lot more to me than that, but for the purposes of the topic at hand I feel its relevant to state the above.

Why is it okay to not be respectful of my wishes with regards to my identity and how am I spoken to? Why is a simple request regarding language when talking to me such an unreasonable demand? Is it not a common courtesy to be respectful towards someone who is being respectful of you? Whenever I mention that I am transgender and was not born a woman, a lot of gender critical people i encounter immediately start referring to me as a man even when they had been referring to me as a woman before. Over the years and pre pandemic I used to occasionally frequent LGBT spaces and still frequent some private LGBT groups online.

I'm not claiming anything about my biology or genetics or trying to argue that ive somehow changed my genetic makeup. I'm upfront about who I am. I have no recourse in situations where someone just decides to remind me in every sentence of how I was born. It might seem stupid, trivial, ludicrous even that it hurts me but it does. I am very aware of how I was born. I am very aware that I am different. I hate everything about how I was born. To be reminded of that constantly, sometimes even aggressively is mentally and emotionally exhausting. I don't understand why, its not as though its so hard to refer to me respectfully. You don't even have to agree with me, you can think I'm crazy or insane or delusional or whatever else. But at the end of the day its still a slight change in how you speak to me. Benign, and inconsequential to you maybe but to me it isn't.

Theres so much hatred in this discussion I feel like its become so polarized to that point that the lives of unrelated individual people are being dragged through the mud for no reason. I don't want to change your opinions on my identity or convince you of anything. I dont want to hurt anyone or make anyone uncomfortable. I just want to be allowed to exist and engage with other people who will respect me. That's all.

So, to reiterate, why is it okay to just outright not afford me common courtesy? Why is it encouraged, even endorsed, by many gender critical people to not give me that respect? I havent done anything to gender critical people. Im not even involved in any kind of activism or social media. I've been dragged into this unwillingly. I just want to live my life and feel free to frequent LGBT spaces where I won't be harassed by virtue of my very existence and nothing at all to do with the content of my character.

OP posts:
VestofAbsurdity · 27/12/2021 14:18

Excellent post, Sonex, you painted the perfect picture.

Helleofabore · 27/12/2021 14:19

Oh. And I will have bubbles for the New year.

EricCartmansGoatee · 27/12/2021 14:20

told me this is called 'fact shaming', now and it's considered hostile to offer evidence in support of an argument.

Education is fucked isn't it. With the purging of books, history, science based knowledge. All that will be left is feelings (sad hurty 'oppressed' ones usually) in place of facts to 'support' debate.

Leafstamp · 27/12/2021 14:22

@Floisme

I'll tell you what I find discourteous: issuing invitations to womanhood as if it's some kind of private members club that someone can join through personal recommendation. It's not a character reference, it's biology.
This chimed with me.

For me, there are simply no valid criteria that a man can meet in order to be a woman (and vice versa).

The Gender Recogntion Act needs to be repealed. Gone. Soon.

ThatsMySantaHisBeardIsSoFluffy · 27/12/2021 14:25

I note OP hadn't bothered to return. 🤔🤔

Staffy1 · 27/12/2021 14:35

I’m guessing the OP hasn’t been back because they can’t argue convincingly with the excellent answers given.

ThatsMySantaHisBeardIsSoFluffy · 27/12/2021 14:55

@Staffy1

I’m guessing the OP hasn’t been back because they can’t argue convincingly with the excellent answers given.
Or they posted otherwise than in good faith.
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 27/12/2021 15:34

@Helleofabore

Anyway, I live in hope that mother’ will return. I am setting up an arabella* style vigil. Waiting for pretty much the same evidence to be posted that she has been waiting for accords threads.

So nothing new. Just the after Christmas vigil.

You're taking your life in your hands there. This is Arabella now.
Helleofabore · 27/12/2021 15:38

Oh dear!! Instead of a ‘GOAT’ she became a ghost!!!!!

I am sorry I left the vigil for Christmas, Arabella! I shall now start clapping my hands to try to bring you back to live! Because ‘I believe!’

SorryAuntLydia · 27/12/2021 16:00

@motheroffour824

The trans women I have met are some of the most lovely people who have faced incredible adversity. They may never understand the struggles of women in the way you all for some reason are concerned with, but they'll go through struggles more severe than I'll ever know. I open my arms to them. I find all of your insecurity staggering. By calling someone a "woman" when they biologically are otherwise isn't signing myself up for something. If people are genuinely scared rather than this superficial anger these "feminists" are spouting, I am sorry! The world moves quickly, but we'll move with it.
@motheroffour824 I’m glad you say you are sorry, you should be.

My brother is one of the most lovely people and has faced incredible adversity. He will never understand the struggles of women, but he’ll go through struggles more severe than you will ever know. He still doesn’t have permission to enter single sex spaces or police my language or monitor my beliefs. And because he is decent, he doesn’t try to. See how common courtesy works?

I find your statement staggering. I find your assertion that our anger is superficial staggering. I find your misplaced confidence in your right to speak for all women staggering.

You’re sorry? Good.

ArabellaScott · 27/12/2021 16:04

wwooooohoooOOoo

EricCartmansGoatee · 27/12/2021 16:04

If people are genuinely scared rather than this superficial anger these "feminists" are spouting, I am sorry

That truly is a dreadful thing to say. So women's concerns and fears, against male violence and sexual assault, is casually dismissed as superficial. Absolutely shameful.

ArabellaScott · 27/12/2021 16:05

unable to do ghost emojis

KNOCK
KNOCK
KNOCK

EricCartmansGoatee · 27/12/2021 16:06

@ArabellaScott

wwooooohoooOOoo
You still with us? You sound rather...distant.
Helleofabore · 27/12/2021 16:10

I have a ouji board thingy here at my vigil. Talk to me while I drink bubbles to pass the time waiting for that evidence.

Note: I have my soda stream… it is very handy with much less plastic waste.

VestofAbsurdity · 27/12/2021 16:13

You still with us? You sound rather...distant.

Not as distant as the OP and a couple of other posters....

EricCartmansGoatee · 27/12/2021 16:14

Not as distant as the OP and a couple of other posters....

Grin

I think they're lost to us now.

allmywhat · 27/12/2021 16:22

I think what many women hate is the idea that they now don't matter as much as transwomen do. But this more about the Trans 'movement' than it is about individuals.

I'm sorry, is the implication that there's something wrong with hating the fact that women are treated as mattering less than men and transwomen?

At least you have identified correctly that the problem is with the trans movement. I don't know what you mean by "not individuals." The individuals who comprise the trans movement, and the individuals who support it passively, are precisely the problem.

ArabellaScott · 27/12/2021 16:22

~ soi-disant? ~

DeeCeeCherry · 27/12/2021 16:23

Why is it okay to not be respectful of my wishes with regards to my identity and how am I spoken to? Why is a simple request regarding language when talking to me such an unreasonable demand?

I respect anyone who respects themselves, and me.

SIL is Trans. She is lovely, we are close.

I only take issue with those who are pushing an agenda to replace and oppress natal women. I believe it stems from male born/male socialisation with a blatant patriarchal, misogynistic attitude. I dislike any form of oppression.

SIL does not identify in any way with people like that. I have 2 transgender friends its the same with them - they are who they are, they neither identify with or align with the hostiles.

Aside from that, nothing wrong with being your authentic self. If transition has made you happy, then thats a good thing.

I would show you courtesy and I'd use your chosen name/pronouns too. As long as you're courteous and not hellbent on centering yourself and attempting to erase me then, why not? Dont call me Cis, tho ...

Transgender is nothing new. Its just that those who are hostile to and about women (& I believe them to be in the minority), have the loudest voice.

Vanishun · 27/12/2021 16:25

Imagine a ghost goat.

Screams in the middle of the night like this one out of nowhere ...

Vanishun · 27/12/2021 16:26

Oh no I did the wrong link. This is the magical one!

EricCartmansGoatee · 27/12/2021 16:32

I want that goat.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 27/12/2021 19:47

@Atmywitsend29

The naiveté that abusive predatory men won't intentionally exploit any loophole in a system that allows anyone access to female space, is actually quite shocking. Abusive predatory men will position themselves as law enforcement, church pastors, teachers, foster carers, children's entertainers, beloved celebrities, charitable people, nursery workers, working in schools or hospitals, as nightclub staff or cab drivers, to ensure they have access to victims. The only place they've not been able to get into have been sex segregated, female only safe spaces. Until now. Now there's that wonderful self ID where any man can wake up and call himself Susan and you can't question him. And he can change his identity to "woman" at any time. Including halfway thru a prosecution for rape. And then he and his penis will be housed with women, hundreds of potential victims locked in with him. And a vast majority of women in prison have suffered abuse in their life prior to being incarcerated. But they don't matter do they?

The men that can now self I'd as women and gain access to domestic abuse safehouses, housed with women who've suffered horrific abuse at the hands of men and are then forced to live with one, to hear his voice through the wall, to share facilities with him, or be branded a bigot and transphobic. Can gain access to rape support groups for female victims of male rape. Can counsel women who access rape crisis!! Imagine! Talking to a fucking man about what's happened to you after specifically requested a female therapist. But you don't get to say he's not a female, and the CEO of rape crisis (Scotland) is more interested in re-educating you to unlearn your "bigotry" at wanting a female rape crisis therapist.

Self ID serves the interests of predators who would seek to abuse that system. And yet again, it is women who have to pay that price.

I'll be as kind as you like, I refer to tw by their chosen name, I don't often talk about them in a way to warrant the need for fucking pronouns Hmm but tw need their OWN specialised support and spaces, not access to female only. And our language does need to be modified or removed to be more "kind and inclusive". I don't give a shit if people don't like the worst breastfeed or mother, I don't like the word moist but I don't demand people change the English language to bend to my will lest they be branded phobic and bigoted.

My support for a cause finds its limits quite abruptly when it starts endangering the safety of women and girls. Enjoy your screenshots Twitter 😘

Brava!

I'm quoting this because it's a magnificent post that doesn't deserve to get lost midthread.

Atmywitsend29 · 27/12/2021 20:06

Thank you Purgatory Wine