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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Common courtesy, a non-malicious question from a transgender person

544 replies

WhiteFlagHeldAloft · 24/12/2021 16:16

Hello,

I wanted to ask a question that perhaps some of you may have an answer for. This is not intended to be malicious in any way, or to incite a flame war.

I am another person among many who identifies as transgender. My chromosomes are XY, I lived out my childhood and adolescence as a boy and began taking estrogen and testosterone suppressors at age 18. I identify as a woman and ask that others respect me in that identity. I am in a relationship with a woman who identifies as a lesbian, she was born and has lived her entire life as a woman.

I feel the need to clarify who I am before asking my question as the answer to this question is very relevant to me. I rarely leave me and my partners home, and without fail avoid any kind of sex-segregated environment as much as I can. I work from home, so don't have to do much there. I am not a part of any activism. I am not a vocal member of any kind of community, and avoid social media like a plague ridden rat. I have only ever engaged in sexual contact with my present partner, and for fear that I would not be accepted by her I was never the one to initiate such contact. I understand and uphold consent as a universal necessity, particularly as I have experienced sexual violence myself as an adult.

Alright, that's me. There's a lot more to me than that, but for the purposes of the topic at hand I feel its relevant to state the above.

Why is it okay to not be respectful of my wishes with regards to my identity and how am I spoken to? Why is a simple request regarding language when talking to me such an unreasonable demand? Is it not a common courtesy to be respectful towards someone who is being respectful of you? Whenever I mention that I am transgender and was not born a woman, a lot of gender critical people i encounter immediately start referring to me as a man even when they had been referring to me as a woman before. Over the years and pre pandemic I used to occasionally frequent LGBT spaces and still frequent some private LGBT groups online.

I'm not claiming anything about my biology or genetics or trying to argue that ive somehow changed my genetic makeup. I'm upfront about who I am. I have no recourse in situations where someone just decides to remind me in every sentence of how I was born. It might seem stupid, trivial, ludicrous even that it hurts me but it does. I am very aware of how I was born. I am very aware that I am different. I hate everything about how I was born. To be reminded of that constantly, sometimes even aggressively is mentally and emotionally exhausting. I don't understand why, its not as though its so hard to refer to me respectfully. You don't even have to agree with me, you can think I'm crazy or insane or delusional or whatever else. But at the end of the day its still a slight change in how you speak to me. Benign, and inconsequential to you maybe but to me it isn't.

Theres so much hatred in this discussion I feel like its become so polarized to that point that the lives of unrelated individual people are being dragged through the mud for no reason. I don't want to change your opinions on my identity or convince you of anything. I dont want to hurt anyone or make anyone uncomfortable. I just want to be allowed to exist and engage with other people who will respect me. That's all.

So, to reiterate, why is it okay to just outright not afford me common courtesy? Why is it encouraged, even endorsed, by many gender critical people to not give me that respect? I havent done anything to gender critical people. Im not even involved in any kind of activism or social media. I've been dragged into this unwillingly. I just want to live my life and feel free to frequent LGBT spaces where I won't be harassed by virtue of my very existence and nothing at all to do with the content of my character.

OP posts:
MrGHardy · 28/12/2021 10:33

"Why is it okay to not be respectful of my wishes with regards to my identity and how am I spoken to? Why is a simple request regarding language when talking to me such an unreasonable demand? Is it not a common courtesy to be respectful towards someone who is being respectful of you?"

Except you are not. As so many TRAs, you do not understand what respect is. In this instance you are saying in order to be respectful one must use the language you want. Except by your own logic respect would mean allowing someone else to use the language they want. You think 'respect' is for others to validate your self perception. I call that narcissism.

MrGHardy · 28/12/2021 10:39

@astoundedgoat

I'm gender critical, and regard it as the height of rudeness to address anybody in any way OTHER than the pronouns and name they wish used.
Lmfao

You cannot be GC and with a straight face refer to a bearded dude with "she".

bordermidgebite · 28/12/2021 10:44

What I find interesting about the original post is that they state that people who used to refer to them as she start calling them he when they reveal their transgender status

Now if I was in the habit of saying she because that is how someone appears , why would I switch?

I'd love to have a recording of the conversation that led to those GC people changing how they spoke to that person

Clymene · 28/12/2021 10:47

@bordermidgebite I would replace the word 'interesting' with 'stretches the bounds of credibility' in your first sentence

OnlyTheTitosaurusOfTheIceberg · 28/12/2021 13:10

For me it says to the patriarchy: “Look at me, how nice and kind I am, pat me on the head and validate my submissiveness, pretty please, I'm not like them other women, hurt them not me”.

Do it to Julia.

EricCartmansGoatee · 28/12/2021 13:16

I'd love to have a recording of the conversation that led to those GC people changing how they spoke to that person

I would like to know what may have led up to that. And where they were when it happened.

WomanStillNotAFeeling · 28/12/2021 19:25

Nothing says respect and I’ll engage in a discussion like starting an thread and not being arsed to come back and engage with any of the responses Hmm

SpudleyLass · 28/12/2021 23:14

You're male - why would I ever regard you as or refer to you as a woman, in any way?

There is no way to ''socially'' be a woman without being sexist. Women are born - born female, survive to adulthood.

You were born male with all the privileges that affords. You and I are not the same.

Its not personal - I refer to all males as he him and all females as she/her.

Until we women are treated better and viewed not as second class humans by men, good luck getting any sympathy from me.

ChewtonRoad · 28/12/2021 23:30

I've finally read the entire thread.

WhiteFlag, I hope you live a good life as long as the Fates have deemed it. You may be a decent human being (I don't know you) and I don't wish you harm.

But I will not now or ever call you a woman, use language that you proscribe, or allow you in women's single sex spaces. I do not have to validate your thoughts, and I will never accept that you "identify as a woman" because identifying as something you are not is meaningless. A woman is an adult human female who started life as an XX female infant.

You say "I hate everything about how I was born." and I'm sorry to read that, but you must deal with that, and trying to be something you can never be will not address those underlying issues.

You say "I dont want to hurt anyone or make anyone uncomfortable." but what you've posted indicates that you have no idea what natal women think or feel when we read this, as it is ultimately harmful and an uncomfortable reminder of the misogyny inherent in many (not all) men.

You do not and will never have control over my thoughts and actions. I will not "be kind" as I will not subsume my life to any man's wishes. I'm not going away, I'm not stepping aside on the pavement so you can pass, and I'm not going to allow my life to be made smaller in order for a man's life to be made larger.

CallMeNutribullet · 29/12/2021 00:00

I'll use people's preferred pronouns and I believe most GC do although for some it doesn't seem to be enough unless you're actively demonstrating you believe that transwomen are literally women.

I know SOME people refuse mainly because they've become really sickened by this insistence that language around womanhood in general changes - that we're no longer able to choose what we call OURSELVES.

I believe for the vast majority of people who are gender critical they're concerned about the erosion of women's rights and safety, about fairness in sport and protecting vulnerable women in prison.

PurplePeculiar · 29/12/2021 00:13

I think the backstory (however well-meaning) is irrelevant. I think it is a peculiarly male facet to require women to assuage their hurt. I am sorry for your pain and distress, I truly am. I imagine your life has been difficult. That doesn't mean that I am going to erase my rights and history for you. I'm not going to allow you to disregard my biological reality and I am certainly not going to collude with your notion that you can think and feel yourself into womanhood. It's a nonsense. It's narcissistic and so breathtakingly arrogant to even ask.

The fact that you can't see this...

HaroldMeeker · 29/12/2021 08:12

@PurplePeculiar

I think the backstory (however well-meaning) is irrelevant. I think it is a peculiarly male facet to require women to assuage their hurt. I am sorry for your pain and distress, I truly am. I imagine your life has been difficult. That doesn't mean that I am going to erase my rights and history for you. I'm not going to allow you to disregard my biological reality and I am certainly not going to collude with your notion that you can think and feel yourself into womanhood. It's a nonsense. It's narcissistic and so breathtakingly arrogant to even ask.

The fact that you can't see this...

The fact that they can't see this is proof they're male and have been socialised and raised as one.
FrippEnos · 29/12/2021 11:15

bordermidgebite

I'd love to have a recording of the conversation that led to those GC people changing how they spoke to that person

I suspect it would go something like
Trans person: 'call me by my preferred pronouns
GC person: 'no'
Trans person: 'do it or I will report you and you will be hounded out of your job'
GC person: 'OK'

RestingStitchFace · 29/12/2021 18:04

Self ID as a concept is massively flawed and women's rights and safety are paying the price. My concern is that the trans movement is being hi-jacked by a load of men with gynephilia who just want to act out their sexual fetishes in public and who want to aggressively push themselves into women's spaces. I do not believe that a genuine trans-woman would be caught masturbating with their male sex organ in a public place - as happened recently in Middlesbrough. I do not believe a genuine trans-woman would want to rape women with their penis. Because presumably a trans person with genuine gender dysphoria would be deeply uncomfortable with the fact they had a penis in the first place.

I will happily respect the pronouns of anyone who has real gender dysphoria and has spent their life trying to live as the opposite sex and who is working towards a medical transition. But I reserve my right to call 'bullshit' with the others.

Pinkyxx · 29/12/2021 23:36

I'd have no issue referring to you with whatever pronoun you prefer. I would say however that, I am female yet my name is not necessarily female to many whom I work with consequently I am often called ''he'' in email correspondence etc. Do I find this offensive, disrespectful? No. I hadn't really thought about it until I read your thread. Could I find reason to as a rape survivor who finds it intolerable to be in proximity of a male? sure, I could make a huge thing about it bringing up painful memories and lament how the world disrespects me. I am not that egocentric, I don't function as if the world revolves around me and my feelings, wants and needs. The notion I'd have that much time on my hands to invest in such self-indulgence is at odds to how little entitlement I feel.

You say you identify as a woman, yet I can't help feeling you sound & behave just like a man. It's the sense of entitlement that betrays you.

Warblerinwinter · 30/12/2021 12:55

[quote EverNapping]@theonlylivingboyinnewcross Many of the threads I have seen on here are people wanting to refuse to use an individual's preferred pronouns...[/quote]
I don’t read that. I do read that the vast majority of women on this board don’t want to identify pronouns up front.
For me the main issues for not announcing my pronouns to expel who don’t know me is the same reason I avoid using a title in my name . Announcing I am a women means I am taken less seriously. I’ve got to my 50s and I am fed up with playing that game. Many people respond to me as Mr , I don’t correct them . It just reinforces those stereotypes I would rather we should have long since dumped: gender stereotypes

Warblerinwinter · 30/12/2021 13:07

To answer the Op. like many women since I was a teenager, we have lived alongside transvestite and transsexual women most of our lives. Until about 8-9 years ago this sort of discussion and antagonistic arguments did not come out. That was becuase most of these individuals respected women and their needs for single sexed spaces.
It is only since a minority of very vocal and nasty people began demanding that they were in fact women and ignoring biology to dismantle women so sexed based rights.
I am, like the vast majority of women always polite. I would not dare adresss you as the wrong pronouns deliberately. And have no wish to. How you dress and perceive yourself is no business of mine if you are not infringing on my rights. Women have been socially raised to be “nice” and I would ascertain it isn’t women misgendering you that you need to be worried about mostly. Nor is it women you need to be worried about threatening you with violence etc.
you respect women, and they will respect you .
I have no beef with how you want to express yourself and call yourself. In fact that is the whole reason I am gender critical. If we weren’t so obsessed as a society with gender stereotypes then how you express yourself and what you call yourself would not raise an eyebrow with men either, let alone women. But, like most women, and as a scientist, I will not be forced into a belief where biological men can call themselves women based on feelings that rely on gender stereotypes

DuckDuckNo · 30/12/2021 16:49

@PurplePeculiar

I think the backstory (however well-meaning) is irrelevant. I think it is a peculiarly male facet to require women to assuage their hurt. I am sorry for your pain and distress, I truly am. I imagine your life has been difficult. That doesn't mean that I am going to erase my rights and history for you. I'm not going to allow you to disregard my biological reality and I am certainly not going to collude with your notion that you can think and feel yourself into womanhood. It's a nonsense. It's narcissistic and so breathtakingly arrogant to even ask.

The fact that you can't see this...

This exactly. We do not exist to validate you; our lives and realities do not exist to make your life easier (or more difficult). We are separate beings, not non-player-characters in any male person's life. Our biological reality does not cease to exist just because a male person has feelings about it.
OvaHere · 31/12/2021 00:27

The OP seems to be appealing to women to 'be nice' or 'be kind' when that appeal to women's socialisation is exactly what has manipulated us into this sorry mess that is losing us rights and causing considerable harm in some areas of life.

Quite frankly the stakes are too high now and if OP wants someone to blame look in the direction of aggressive transactivist organisations.

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