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Original poster

Does anyone else feel that the tone has changed on this board?

999 replies

ViceLikeBlip · 08/11/2021 21:58

This board has been incredibly important to me, especially when I felt like I was losing my mind because no one else seemed to see a problem with self ID, and everyone else seemed to believe TWAW (or, I now realise, everyone else was too scared to suggest they might not believe TWAW).

You guys helped me rationalise my thoughts, and realise I wasn't some awful transphobe, and I've been really grateful to be part of this community. And I really felt like I belonged: we were pro women's rights, not anti trans rights, and we didn't believe that all transwomen are dangerous perverts but rather we recognised that dangerous perverts do exist, and they will readily take advtange of any loophole that gives them access to women.

More than anything, you guys have been an absolute mine of information - facts, stats, latest developments, and you've pointed me in the direction of news articles and twitter rows that I never would have seen otherwise. I'm genuinely grateful for this.

But recently the mood seems to have shifted significantly. There seems to be a lot of open animosity and ridicule towards all things trans. The recent outcry about M&S letting some people put their pronouns on their name badges felt uncomfortably close to clamouring to have M&S "cancelled".

I guess I used to feel like this was a safe space where I was with like minded people, but now I don't think everyone on here can hand-on-heart maintain that they're not anti-trans anymore, and it makes me very upset to see this shift happening (and happening quickly).

OP posts:
AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken · 08/11/2021 22:00

I was on the M&S name badge thread. People made very good points.

What in particular did you find to be anti-trans?

PermanentTemporary · 08/11/2021 22:03

I think i know what you mean. There's a quicker shift to be against any move that could be considered neutral, or any 'on the other hand' argument, yes.

Babdoc · 08/11/2021 22:04

Anything “anti trans” would be removed by the mods, OP. If you think they have missed something, you can report it yourself.

Original poster
ViceLikeBlip · 08/11/2021 22:06

@AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken

I was on the M&S name badge thread. People made very good points.

What in particular did you find to be anti-trans?

I found some responses almost gleeful in their righteous indignation. And calls to boycott - that's absolutely akin to "cancelling". And it reminded me precisely of everything I hate about the worst elements of extreme trans rights activism.
OP posts:
TurquoiseBaubles · 08/11/2021 22:08

Women are angry. I presume we are allowed to be?

Even a few years ago it was thought that we could all talk amicably, and that if only people knew about the effect of aggressive trans activism on women, it would stop and we could work out a compromise. It's been more and more brought to out notice (or shoved in our faces) that it isn't possible to reach a compromise, so many of us are now just at the "fuck off stage".

We tried being nice. It didn't work. We've had enough.

CloseYourEyesAndSee · 08/11/2021 22:10

Boycotting a company isn't 'cancel culture'
Trying to have a company shut down or harassing their employees or CEO is 'cancel culture'

You know what - when you've been in this debate for years your tolerance for bullshit gets eroded away to pretty much nothing. I'm sure lots of posters are less naice and accommodating and 'look at both sides' than they were a couple of years ago. That just means they are tired. Purity politics aren't helpful.

Original poster
ViceLikeBlip · 08/11/2021 22:12

@Babdoc

Anything “anti trans” would be removed by the mods, OP. If you think they have missed something, you can report it yourself.
Well, the fact that there is a whole post questioning why anyone would possibly ever care what other people call them. Like I said, I'm absolutely not of the opinion of "oh it's just pronouns, what's the big deal", but I didn't feel much empathy coming through from that post or most of the replies. I very much take on board the point that it's not as simple as "just be kind", but I do think kindness should come into it.
OP posts:
RobinMoiraWhite · 08/11/2021 22:12

@Babdoc

Anything “anti trans” would be removed by the mods, OP. If you think they have missed something, you can report it yourself.
And if any of we uppity trans women comment, we usually get comments attacking us rather than dealing with the substance of any comment we make.
Themilkmanschild · 08/11/2021 22:13

It's always been anti trans

GreyhoundG1rl · 08/11/2021 22:14

We tried being nice. It didn't work. We've had enough
This, in a nutshell...

maddy68 · 08/11/2021 22:14

Yes it's fairly toxic. ;(

Themilkmanschild · 08/11/2021 22:15

I was basically told I was a bad parent and that it must have been something I did to make my child decide they were non binary. Like it was the worst thing a child could be.

GreyhoundG1rl · 08/11/2021 22:15

dealing with the substance of any comment we make
Maybe there's a whole lot less "substance" than you imagine?

RobinMoiraWhite · 08/11/2021 22:16

@GreyhoundG1rl

dealing with the substance of any comment we make Maybe there's a whole lot less "substance" than you imagine?
Q.E.D.
Original poster
ViceLikeBlip · 08/11/2021 22:17

Yes, I absolutely understand that women are angry, that they've been shat on from all angles, and there's a feeling of euphoria that we're actually "allowed" to discuss these things much more freely now than we have been in the past couple of years. I remember when you couldn't get more than 4 comments into a thread without the whole thing being deleted for "transphobia".

But my fight was only ever with extreme trans rights activists, and those looking to deliberately abuse the system and find new ways to harm women. My fight was never with trans people as a community. For example, I have no problem with regular trans people requesting certain pronouns, or even proudly displaying their chosen pronouns (but there's exactly zero chance that will ever be "declaring" my own pronouns)

OP posts:
GreyhoundG1rl · 08/11/2021 22:17

Hardly.

Babdoc · 08/11/2021 22:17

You mention kindness, OP. I think when a lot of previously kind women were subjected to rape and death threats by TRAs, told to die in a grease fire, suck lady dick, etc, their kindness was rapidly exhausted.
Kindness needs to go both ways, no?

AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken · 08/11/2021 22:18

@ViceLikeBlip

I didn’t see any posts which demanded everyone boycott. I only saw ones from posters who said they personally wouldn’t shop there anymore as they no longer felt safe using the changing rooms and we’re affronted by being forced to comply with an ideology they don’t share.

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with customers choosing to not shop somewhere that you don’t feel safe. I wouldn’t class that as cancel culture.

What happened to JKR was cancel culture. When M&S CEO’s receive death threats and rape threats, when they have their staff publicly and personally attack them, when people are too scared to tell their colleagues they quite like M&S for fear of being sacked…

Then we can talk about cancel culture.

Triphazards · 08/11/2021 22:18

In answer to the spurious question in the title: yes, but it's just you and a few cranks.

Mollyollydolly · 08/11/2021 22:19

Not really. I just think women have had enough. It's like Helen Joyce said we need to win, being nice doesn't work. Opinions may have hardened (I think mine have), I reject the ideology and resent having it foisted on me by companies like M&S. They would never dream of telling me how to vote, why am I expected to agree with gender ideology. No. Couldn't care less how individuals live their lives, they are two separate things to me.

MsFogi · 08/11/2021 22:19

I think the tone has changed - but my perception is that there are lots of threads started by people who are pro-trans or pro-trans people commenting on the chats and it feels like many of them are not present elsewhere on MN but are simply here to try to steer the "debate".

beastlyslumber · 08/11/2021 22:20

There are loads of threads about pronouns at the moment. Range of comments representing different views and nuances.

I find it odd that your OP talks about how "we think" this and that. It sounds like you want more group think?

I don't like cancel culture but I don't shop in M&S in case some bloke tries to get in the changing room with me. That's my choice. It's not the same thing as cancelling an individual.

Original poster
ViceLikeBlip · 08/11/2021 22:20

@Themilkmanschild

It's always been anti trans
I've been a very avid reader on here for a fair while, and this honestly isn't true. I felt it was always anti "trans voices being the only voices allowed".
OP posts:
FatFilledTrottyPuss · 08/11/2021 22:21

@TurquoiseBaubles

Women are angry. I presume we are allowed to be?

Even a few years ago it was thought that we could all talk amicably, and that if only people knew about the effect of aggressive trans activism on women, it would stop and we could work out a compromise. It's been more and more brought to out notice (or shoved in our faces) that it isn't possible to reach a compromise, so many of us are now just at the "fuck off stage".

We tried being nice. It didn't work. We've had enough.

Exactly this. Being nice gets us nowhere, I’m at the limit of what I can comfortably bear now. I’m sick of having this stuff shoved down my throat. Pronoun badges/email signatures and trans road crossings and rainbows are making me feel unsafe.
Original poster
ViceLikeBlip · 08/11/2021 22:24

@beastlyslumber

There are loads of threads about pronouns at the moment. Range of comments representing different views and nuances.

I find it odd that your OP talks about how "we think" this and that. It sounds like you want more group think?

I don't like cancel culture but I don't shop in M&S in case some bloke tries to get in the changing room with me. That's my choice. It's not the same thing as cancelling an individual.

You're probably right with the "group think" comment. It was just nice for me when I felt like my ideas aligned almost exactly with the vocal majority on here, but now my own opinions are diverging a bit. And I was curious whether I'm really diverging from most of the group, and whether this just isn't the space for me any more.
OP posts: