Does anyone else feel that the tone has changed on this board?

[ViceLikeBlip]

This board has been incredibly important to me, especially when I felt like I was losing my mind because no one else seemed to see a problem with self ID, and everyone else seemed to believe TWAW (or, I now realise, everyone else was too scared to suggest they might not believe TWAW).

You guys helped me rationalise my thoughts, and realise I wasn't some awful transphobe, and I've been really grateful to be part of this community. And I really felt like I belonged: we were pro women's rights, not anti trans rights, and we didn't believe that all transwomen are dangerous perverts but rather we recognised that dangerous perverts do exist, and they will readily take advtange of any loophole that gives them access to women.

More than anything, you guys have been an absolute mine of information - facts, stats, latest developments, and you've pointed me in the direction of news articles and twitter rows that I never would have seen otherwise. I'm genuinely grateful for this.

But recently the mood seems to have shifted significantly. There seems to be a lot of open animosity and ridicule towards all things trans. The recent outcry about M&S letting some people put their pronouns on their name badges felt uncomfortably close to clamouring to have M&S "cancelled".

I guess I used to feel like this was a safe space where I was with like minded people, but now I don't think everyone on here can hand-on-heart maintain that they're not anti-trans anymore, and it makes me very upset to see this shift happening (and happening quickly).

Personally I have found that when 1 side constantly uses death and rape threats whilst simultaneously crying about being "the most vulnerable " group propped up with long discredited statistics.
Claiming that they are "the most marginalised group" when they have stonewall etc al rewriting the law as they see fit and bullying, doxing and silencing any dissent.
When calling out a sexual predator is answered with claims of bigotry and victim blaming (wi spa).
When girls begin raped in school gets covered up (looking at you louden county)
When rape victims who understandably can't handle being around an male born persons are called bigots and told to "reframe their trauma "
When lesbians are told by STONEWALL that they are transphobic and no better than racists for their same sex attraction
Be kind doesn't work!
Calling out the rank misogyny and homophobia that underpins all of this directly and with the ridicule it deserves becomes the only course of action and is being kind to women

Being kind means that a transwoman decided it was okay to grope my autistic nieces breast in the womens toilets a couple of weeks back.

Please show me a single positive thing about transwomen taking over womens spaces or even entering them.

Where is the benefit for real women in having their scholarships stolen, their awards stolen, their sports stolen, thier social clubs stolen, their identities stolen, their jobs stolen, their representation stolen, their jobs stolen, their safe spaces stolen?

Their existence in womens spaces shuts out natal women of some faiths & cultures.
They do absolutely nothing to help real women.
They do nothing to help anyone but themselves.

They aren't kind, so why should women be?

No 'kind' transwoman would ever enter any women only space, so the minute 'they just want to go to the loo/be in the lesbians only club/win woman of the year/model for Chanel/take an actresses job playing a female role' they have proven themselves the same as every other male stomping all over womens rights.

@MsFogi I agree. There's been regular influxes recently who seem utterly determined that we capitulate to gender ideology - it's coming across as the desperation of a dying regime. There's a massive push for the word cis to be used. Female is now used in a non sexed way. As an example, see some of the really awful, unpleasant posts on the cis thread on AIBU - there's a definite feeling that women must be made to capitulate, or else.

Problem there is that there is a definite sea change and the chilling effect is losing its potency. Women are now seeing the end in sight and are less likely to feel that they must be kind or agree in order to avoid being branded a transphobe.

I, like many posters on here, started very much from a position of 'what's the problem - why can't we all be kind?'. But there's just been too much unpleasantness, and just open hatred of women who voiced concerns or objections. TRA's over-reached and are now becoming aware of the backlash. There will now (inevitably) be calls for 'reasonable debate to balance the needs of both groups'. But that's what women wanted from the beginning - instead they were told to 'die in grease fires'.

I believe in transpeople having the right to live their lives and be safe and not discriminated against. I also believe in women having those rights. I wanted to find a position where these rights could be balanced. But that made me a 'transphobe'.

I'm Scottish and am horrified by what's happened to women's rights here. But it's embedded in the Government, Police, Prison System, Education system, placed there by a very determined ideology determined to change the definition of woman. We weren't consulted, weren't asked, we haven't agreed to this. But it's happening anyway and will take years to undo. So frankly yes, I'm fucking angry.

Does anyone think these kind of handwringing purity spirals are helpful?

And not read m and s thread.

But the pronouns thing is totally impractical in real life.

It works with small numbers of people who see each other a lot etc. Try it in a larger employer etc. And it's a nightmare.

As ever the arguments around gender > sex ALWAYS focus on individuals and never large groups. I do class level. So do many women on here. And that is a real barrier to communication.

We get accused of being an echo chamber constantly. I have seen it numerous times even just today.

The regular posters on these boards have always been diverse in their thinking. They constantly challenge each other and where they draw their lines.

That is what makes this board NOT the echo chamber many people project when they call it that, while hypocritically preferring their own echo chambers.

I don’t want to post on in an echo chamber. I want to read others well constructed arguments. Along with the evidence supporting those arguments to challenge my own.

Everytime a study comes out, or new stats, I genuinely re-evaluate my position. However, I most certainly push back on emotionally manipulative tactics and we have certainly seen a whole lot of those.

I have never seen the levels of misogyny that I see from TRAs outside incel and other MRA forums. Which is telling.

High handed bullshit, Then full on Jane Austin 'not being 'countenanced' bs.

I agree OP that the "mood has shifted" as you say. And that's for the good. Women are so socialised to "be kind" that unbelievably there's been a wholesale takeover of our identity, sex based rights, legal protections and language. Women are being completely disempowered. And as for what is happening to children......

It's long overdue for women to be fucking furious at what has happened on the back of #nodebate and #bekind

The fact that this board is tediously heavily monitored by those who object to women having the right to speak our truths shows just how intense the determination is to silence women.

Agree, MrsOverton.

I don't know why you're surprised. Social media, which MN is part of, is the epicentre of cancel culture. Therefore it's inevitable that anti feeling will eventually lead to some calling for cancellation. Of anything/everything.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Does anyone think these kind of handwringing purity spirals are helpful?

This. 40,000 times.

If you want a safe space you're in the wrong place.

"Kindness' goes both ways... We tried being nice. It didn't work. We've had enough.

I think you are referring to my pronoun thread.

PP got it right.

I have run out of #BeKind.

Dunno, maybe all the rights to dignity, safety and privacy that I'm missing are having an impact.

This is a feminist board.

I don’t think how many trans people are violent tra’s or how many are naice sweet tw just going about their daily life peacefully is relevant here.

This board is for woman=adult human female. This board is about women’s rights. Including those born female who identify otherwise.

There’s never ending crime stats on the threat males pose to us.

We don’t need to quantify that threat. We don’t need to self edit and post disclaimers about most males are respectful and peaceful when talking about male violence against women and girls. We don’t need to centre anyone here but women. Women’s voices and women’s needs.

Whether most transwomen are nice or not isn’t our concern, there’s plenty other areas of mn that centre trans peoples voices. This is the one board, on a parenting forum full of mostly women, that we have just for women’s needs. And we don’t have to be naice and polite about that here.

I've found the recent pronoun threads interesting and I'm beginning to shift my views as a result: I still want to be courteous but I also think it's discourteous to expect me to endorse a belief I don't share. I wouldn't have reached that conclusion on my own so I'm grateful to everyone who's posted whether I agree with them or not.

@TinselAngel

If you want a safe space you're in the wrong place.

Why does any space need to be "safe", anyway? Argue your point, if people want to frame a counter argument - that's how discourse works in the real world 🤷🏻‍♀️

I'm with you op. I've flirted with this board because I agree with many of thw arguments made but I always end up in the same place, feeling like there's an anti trans and toxic undercurrent that I don't want to be part of. I don't know if it's got particularly worse recently but it certainly hasn't got better and I can't see genuine progress being made from such a starting point. I know you'll get sneery and aggressive responses to your post but I wanted to support your sentiment because I'm not sure these boards are fully representative of the range of feelings I. Mumsnet. It's quite a scary board to post on.

You entirely miss the whole point.

This is not about being nice/ nasty. Although obv individuals can say/ do some reprehensible things.

It's about-

The redefinition of the words that have always been used to describe our half of the global population as a group. Woman, girl. And female is going.

And the replacement of those words with things like vagina haver. Dehumanising in the extreme.

The fact that the NHS, loads of charities, employers etc have adopted it. Even though the new terms are just euphemisms, less understood, many are inaccurate biologically etc.

It's males in women's prisons, sports etc.

And I mean all of the stuff we all know.

It's not about individuals at all.

It's about the loss of our entire ability to talk about ourselves as a group. We're half the world. Just no. No no no no no.

And that's that really.

Many people who rush to tell people to #bekind are some of the nastiest, most controlling bullies I've encountered online. Not you, OP, just explaining why it leaves me cold.

I dont think the mood has shifted as anyone coming to tone police has always had had short shrift.

And why is it always the unknown posters that have 'lurked forever and learned so much.....but but...'

At least have the intellectual honesty to say you think we're a crowd of bigots and stop trying to manipulate and patronise us. We have learned from the Masters by reading the Relationships board.

You posted a thread criticising an entire board for having the wrong tone and then you complain of a pile on? It's like waking into a knitting club and shouting 'Knitting is shit! Crochet roolz!' and then wondering why you get disagreement.

It's always been a scary board for newcomers. The purpose of feminism isn't to be a warm and fuzzy hug box and I don't remember it ever being so.

So true, Milady.