Does anyone else feel that the tone has changed on this board?

[ViceLikeBlip]

This board has been incredibly important to me, especially when I felt like I was losing my mind because no one else seemed to see a problem with self ID, and everyone else seemed to believe TWAW (or, I now realise, everyone else was too scared to suggest they might not believe TWAW).

You guys helped me rationalise my thoughts, and realise I wasn't some awful transphobe, and I've been really grateful to be part of this community. And I really felt like I belonged: we were pro women's rights, not anti trans rights, and we didn't believe that all transwomen are dangerous perverts but rather we recognised that dangerous perverts do exist, and they will readily take advtange of any loophole that gives them access to women.

More than anything, you guys have been an absolute mine of information - facts, stats, latest developments, and you've pointed me in the direction of news articles and twitter rows that I never would have seen otherwise. I'm genuinely grateful for this.

But recently the mood seems to have shifted significantly. There seems to be a lot of open animosity and ridicule towards all things trans. The recent outcry about M&S letting some people put their pronouns on their name badges felt uncomfortably close to clamouring to have M&S "cancelled".

I guess I used to feel like this was a safe space where I was with like minded people, but now I don't think everyone on here can hand-on-heart maintain that they're not anti-trans anymore, and it makes me very upset to see this shift happening (and happening quickly).

I really think that given so many transsexuals, transgender people and allies are not happy about the extent of demands esp when it comes to single sex spaces sports etc.

It would be really good for them to organise and make their objections known.

On MN there have been plenty posters who feel that way, seen loads on Twitter too. So get together and do something! Otherwise when in all gets more widely known. The backlash will impact them and I know they know this.

The backlash will be the fault of those who asked for an inch and took a mile. Not the fault of a relatively small number of women saying wtf no way.

I saw some tweets from a female ally who went to a protest and was horrified by the misognist abuse of women that happened.

She was shell shocked. I felt sorry for her.

There are plenty others out there.

The back lash isn’t women’s responsibility. It’s not our job to fix what happens once we say no. We have a right to boundaries and the effect that has on others isn’t our concern.

It’s a valid discussion for other areas of MN I’m sure, but not the feminist board.

I'm afraid I agree with a PP. It wasn't the people chalking penises on the pavements who have been running Stonewall and creating the situations the BBC et al now find themselves in.

No. That goes right back to the people who set up Press for Change & worked to popularise the term ‘trans’ instead of ‘transsexual’ or ‘transvestite’ because they wanted to blur the difference in the public consciousness.

@BloodinGutters

The back lash isn’t women’s responsibility. It’s not our job to fix what happens once we say no. We have a right to boundaries and the effect that has on others isn’t our concern.

It’s a valid discussion for other areas of MN I’m sure, but not the feminist board.

This.

@ArabellaScott

Ain't no party like a heteroflexible party!

Ah fuck, I'm in the throes of menopause and lost all flexibility about 3 years ago. Am also heteroflexible I think after a couple of escapades over the years. Not sure it counts as generally I like men, even though they are often bastards. Ho hum.

I think it must be clear to everyone that gender activism has attracted a tail end of extremely militant and misogynist followers - so why don’t they collectively do something about it?

I see no calls anywhere, on any media, by TRAs saying “we’re horrified by the behaviour of a minority of our activists, and threats of violence and misogyny are absolutely unacceptable, it’s not what we stand for, folks.”

Zilch, zip, nada. Just denial and bluster and ignoring the issue and shouting transphobe at anyone who has the slightest reservations about the “die cis scum choke on my …..” crowd.

The back lash isn’t women’s responsibility. It’s not our job to fix what happens once we say no. We have a right to boundaries and the effect that has on others isn’t our concern.

I cringe every time I see Stonewall or Mermaids or whatever described as LGBTQetc & feel the need to explain that they don’t really mean lesbians….

@foxgoosefinch

I think it must be clear to everyone that gender activism has attracted a tail end of extremely militant and misogynist followers - so why don’t they collectively do something about it?

I see no calls anywhere, on any media, by TRAs saying “we’re horrified by the behaviour of a minority of our activists, and threats of violence and misogyny are absolutely unacceptable, it’s not what we stand for, folks.”

Zilch, zip, nada. Just denial and bluster and ignoring the issue and shouting transphobe at anyone who has the slightest reservations about the “die cis scum choke on my …..” crowd.

I wonder though - I remember reading on here about a group pf transmen objecting to the conversion therapy bill being debated. It was some sort of formalized group, they had a website with stuff about all kinds of trans related issues that did not fir the usual narrative.

I've never seen anything about that group anywhere but that one post. Certainly not in the media talking about the bill. But it was clearly something they had taken some time to set up and intended to do some lobbying on trans issues.

So I guess I wonder if there is more of it that we might realize?

[quote AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken]@ViceLikeBlip

I didn’t see any posts which demanded everyone boycott. I only saw ones from posters who said they personally wouldn’t shop there anymore as they no longer felt safe using the changing rooms and we’re affronted by being forced to comply with an ideology they don’t share.

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with customers choosing to not shop somewhere that you don’t feel safe. I wouldn’t class that as cancel culture.

What happened to JKR was cancel culture. When M&S CEO’s receive death threats and rape threats, when they have their staff publicly and personally attack them, when people are too scared to tell their colleagues they quite like M&S for fear of being sacked…

Then we can talk about cancel culture.[/quote]
This

LobsterNapkin

That group received a great deal of abuse, if it is who I think it is. I think they took everything down within hours the abuse was so bad.

And I am, of course, talking about the abuse from transitioned males. Towards group of transitioned females.

EmpressaurusWitchDoesntBurn

It may not include lesbians, but perhaps it includes Maugham the lawyer? He's attending the European Diversity awards tonight as a guest of its founder Linda Riley (of Diva fame), and he tweeted that he was thrilled to be with my people.

twitter.com/mccavfefe/status/1458880028503064581?t=9mVqq1NMf16uKkF9UjvB0w&s=19

@BloodinGutters

The back lash isn’t women’s responsibility. It’s not our job to fix what happens once we say no. We have a right to boundaries and the effect that has on others isn’t our concern.

It’s a valid discussion for other areas of MN I’m sure, but not the feminist board.

It’s not our responsibility but we do have an interest. If the backlash takes the shape of re-establishing regressionary ideas about sex, which it will do it we stand back and let it be lead by reactionary voices, that is a bad thing for many people including women. If the backlash means any LGBT groups, spaces and activism becomes suspect that hurts a lot of people. In short, I don’t want a backlash against genderism, I want just want the movement undertake sone self-examination and realise the best way to stop having an identity “forced” on you based on your sex is simply to let go of the idea of cis- or trans- identities in the first place.

They aren't going to stop.

The shouty pushy voices imo don't care about trans people any more than they do any other groups.

They've appropriated words phrases arguments from- off the top of my head

Disability rights
Civil rights movement USA
Feminism
Lgb activism
DSD groups
More?

And often turned them against the people they took them from.

If they cared about trans people they would be discussing with other groups, looking at data, acting to provide the things trans people need eg mental health support, assistance with homelessness which is reported to be high. Assistance with things like discrimination in housing. I mean and etc etc. They would definitely be focusing on male judgement/ discomfort/ verbal abuse/ violence.

Instead the entire focus is on telling other groups to centre trans 'voices' irrespective of the group they formed to help. Especially anything to do with women. Calling us people with vaginas while simultaneously accusing us of being biological essentialist/ perves who are overly interested in the genitals of others.

And telling everyone from govt to NHS to charities for everything to create / do the stuff they want.

I have read so many trans orgs sites missions and I see essentially lots of problems being raised and zero action on their part to do anything.

Why will any backlash automatically mean society adopting (more) regressive views about sex?

@CheeseMmmm

Why will any backlash automatically mean society adopting (more) regressive views about sex?

I didn’t say it will automatically, I said “it will do if we let it be lead by reactionary voices”.

As to why, read the comments in the Mail, the Express, the Telegraph and even the Times. There’s still plenty of people out there who just like to put the boot into anyone different, and plenty who still blame feminism for the breakdown of decent society.

It's common for backlashes to be a little broad in their condemnation. I don't think it's a bad thing if there is a real lens put on all identity politics and CT, and that will include quite a lot of activism in the last 30 years. Maybe including things that some people feel were progressive.

But there may also be a lot of trust lost in a way that will affect people who had never bought into any of that. Some of the fetish/safeguarding stuff in particular strikes me as likely to have that effect.

Oh sorry blibby! Yes you did.

We have had a conservative govt for years.

Feminism has always been extremely unpopular. That's never changed.

Resentment against women and other minorities 'getting special treatment' existed before this and has been growing anyway, would have with or without this.

The things that have come about because of this. Eg women losing jobs, being vilified, getting targeted by angry men. The open tone of hatred and constant way it's expressed that violence against women who say no would be (is) justified...

I mean that is surely a very regressive misogynist view of women as well...

So meh really. Woman haters on the left at the moment are more vocal and angry by far than anything from the right.

So I don't really agree tbh.

I'm just trying to post on this thread before it's filled up completely to say what a fascinating, educating and worth while sink of my time reading thread this has been to cement / challenge and inform. Bravo and thank you.

We can't control the backlash. That why we tried so hard to prevent it getting so bad. I don't think there's anything we can do to stop it now. We might be able to mitigate the worst of it.

@BloodinGutters

The back lash isn’t women’s responsibility. It’s not our job to fix what happens once we say no. We have a right to boundaries and the effect that has on others isn’t our concern.

It’s a valid discussion for other areas of MN I’m sure, but not the feminist board.

Not read to the end yet but no.

Homosexuals will cop some of the backlash, there will be plenty who will don't give a fuck about the existence of the LGB Alliance for example.
And the largely hetero "queerios" will scurry off and hide.

I was really unclear there! I mean that the backlash won't take into consideration the fact many homosexuals and bisexuals don't buy into gender theory.
We will get the backlash while the "queer" straight people go back to living socially acceptable lives, avoiding any pain.

I think that a backlash against all minority groups has been coming for years.

I don't think this issue makes it better or worse tbh.

@Helleofabore

LobsterNapkin

That group received a great deal of abuse, if it is who I think it is. I think they took everything down within hours the abuse was so bad.

And I am, of course, talking about the abuse from transitioned males. Towards group of transitioned females.

That could be part of the reason some people keep their heads down, even transwomen. A certain number of the group have other issues going on, and just like a lot of us, being critical in public, under your own name, may not be so easy.