Does anyone else feel that the tone has changed on this board?

[ViceLikeBlip]

This board has been incredibly important to me, especially when I felt like I was losing my mind because no one else seemed to see a problem with self ID, and everyone else seemed to believe TWAW (or, I now realise, everyone else was too scared to suggest they might not believe TWAW).

You guys helped me rationalise my thoughts, and realise I wasn't some awful transphobe, and I've been really grateful to be part of this community. And I really felt like I belonged: we were pro women's rights, not anti trans rights, and we didn't believe that all transwomen are dangerous perverts but rather we recognised that dangerous perverts do exist, and they will readily take advtange of any loophole that gives them access to women.

More than anything, you guys have been an absolute mine of information - facts, stats, latest developments, and you've pointed me in the direction of news articles and twitter rows that I never would have seen otherwise. I'm genuinely grateful for this.

But recently the mood seems to have shifted significantly. There seems to be a lot of open animosity and ridicule towards all things trans. The recent outcry about M&S letting some people put their pronouns on their name badges felt uncomfortably close to clamouring to have M&S "cancelled".

I guess I used to feel like this was a safe space where I was with like minded people, but now I don't think everyone on here can hand-on-heart maintain that they're not anti-trans anymore, and it makes me very upset to see this shift happening (and happening quickly).

And Jeez, if people think it's scary now - remember when Dittany was a regular? I never opened my mouth once.

It’s difficult, OP.

I am not at all anti trans people. I am happy for people to present as they wish, and to fight for civil rights and human dignities for people who are trans.

But since the days of the GRA ‘consultation’ things have changed a lot. Women arrested. Hounded out of jobs. Increasingly illogical fictions we are pressured to pretend to accept and services and the processes of democracy itself arranged around the demand to appease dysphoria.

Actually the behaviour of ‘allies’ in all this worries me far more than most trans people.

Anger and upset are mounting, on all sides.

It is important to check ourselves for slipping into being anti trans people.

I've been here for years and years.

The 'tone' has changed multiple times. When I didn't like I didn't post much until changed again.

I do think it's changed yes. But as per my previous post. It's an open board and posters can say what they want (within guidelines).

If it's not for you then you can stop using it. I'm sure there are other places to talk about gender > sex stuff. Pistonheads? KF? I've heard there are very forthright discussions on male dominated boards. I imagine it's very very polite and mild here...

There's also a bit of a dismissive pile on happening here, which I don't think would have happened a few month ago. I've written some truly ignorant things on here before, and felt so welcomed because I wasn't ripped to shreds for it!

I have to wonder are you actually in the trenches yourself on this issue or are you sitting on the edges looking on. Personally I cannot in anyway judge and I’m not because I’m absolutely sitting on the edges.

I really, really appreciate those women who are getting hounded, getting rape and death threats, getting fired and taking court cases on my behalf. I genuinely know that it is women from this board who are backing them up and while I personally do the odd pat, pat on the back on Twitter and try to quietly agitate in my place of work on this issue under the radar or give to crowd fundings that come up, I am certainly not dirty enough in the trenches to comment on what others are doing or what they are doing or saying online to alleviate the stresses that goes along with taking this issue on head on.

Maybe read this thread OP and ponder on why women are so bloody angry?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4396710-Lush-Binder-Collection?watched=1&msgid=112334815#112334815

OP it is possible to believe that many, or most, trans people are lovely individuals who just want to get on with living their lives, while, at the same time, thoroughly disagreeing with them.
I do not think it is ‘anti trans’ to not want to feel coerced to pretend to profess a belief I don’t share. Which is why I resent being asked to use ‘preferred pronouns’ to refer to someone when they’re not there. It is probably ‘anti-transgender ideology’, but I think the ideology is totally incompatible with feminism.

@Floisme

I've found the recent pronoun threads interesting and I'm beginning to shift my views as a result: I still want to be courteous but I also think it's discourteous to expect me to endorse a belief I don't share. I wouldn't have reached that conclusion on my own so I'm grateful to everyone who's posted whether I agree with them or not.

I never would have minded #bekind with regards to pronouns previously either.

Never was ok with compelled speech, but if not compelled I never minded.

But it’s hit home recently that if I use pronouns that are visibly wrong around my daughters that impacts them. It’s confusing to them, disconcerting. It takes away from their ability to name material reality. Which is essential to safeguarding.

As their mother I owe them first before anyone. They have autism, they are already more vulnerable. I will not gas light them to prop up someone else’s identity.

Yes, I have been really uncomfortable a few times at the tone of the debate. It is one thing to be against extremism, another to be nasty about all trans people.

There's also a bit of a dismissive pile on happening here, which I don't think would have happened a few month ago. I've written some truly ignorant things on here before, and felt so welcomed because I wasn't ripped to shreds for it!

I don't recognise the FWR of which you speak tbh.

I had Dittany rip me a new one about ten years ago. Fierce debate and well evidenced argument has always been the thing here - the idea that we were all warm and fuzzy till we went rabidly full TERF is laughable.

Stay or don't stay. But telling feminists off for not being kind and empathetic is like highly distilled irony.

Although is that other board they set up for people who didn't want to talk about gender still going? They might be empathetic? NAFALT after all...

I am not anti any human but I am anti trans ideology. I feel it's negative not just for women but for young people too. How are they getting the idea that their body is wrong and why do they think there's something wrong with just being gay? I know that each individual case is complicated but for me that's essentially what it boils down to. I find the idea of children taking puberty blockers horrifying. I do rankle a little at being told I need to be kind though. I feel that trying to defend people from trans ideology is being kind. No one can demand kindness though. As for the tone of the board, this is not a safe space, it's a public opinion board. I would argue there's no such thing as a safe space anywhere in this world. People can come on and comment as they choose. That's what I like about mumsnet.

@Floisme

And Jeez, if people think it's scary now - remember when Dittany was a regular? I never opened my mouth once.

I recognise you from always! Hello! (I name change every few years!).

Yes I remember her :D

She was the first person I ever came across who said things that I had known since a child but never had any words for or background to etc.

She even had a group name that meant people like me. She genuinly changed my life :)

I met her once- she's lovely! And I miss her so much :(

You're right though- if posts here now are strong then yes ha. She was a force of nature!

@Snugglepumpkin

Being kind means that a transwoman decided it was okay to grope my autistic nieces breast in the womens toilets a couple of weeks back.

Please show me a single positive thing about transwomen taking over womens spaces or even entering them.

Where is the benefit for real women in having their scholarships stolen, their awards stolen, their sports stolen, thier social clubs stolen, their identities stolen, their jobs stolen, their representation stolen, their jobs stolen, their safe spaces stolen?

Their existence in womens spaces shuts out natal women of some faiths & cultures.
They do absolutely nothing to help real women.
They do nothing to help anyone but themselves.

They aren't kind, so why should women be?

No 'kind' transwoman would ever enter any women only space, so the minute 'they just want to go to the loo/be in the lesbians only club/win woman of the year/model for Chanel/take an actresses job playing a female role' they have proven themselves the same as every other male stomping all over womens rights.

For example this post I find a bit grim tbh. And for all that people post they don't want to live in an echo chamber I'm a bit afraid to say so because of the level of aggression that I've seen directed towards other posters.

Wheresmywoolyjumpers
Then report those posts. MN will delete them.

Blimey.

I have posted on running threads, parking threads and once was told to see to my own anxiety because I didn’t want people to sit on my front fence and i obviously had ‘issues’ I should deal with.

If people think anywhere on MN is nice and safe and people thinking along the same lines, they perhaps have not participated in many threads on AIBU.

Geez. Tonight women objecting to being called cis were told that their posts made one poster so furious that the posts from certain posters looked like ‘angry red holes’. I kid you not.

It is my personal perception that this situation is having an impact on a larger proportion of society than formerly, and attracting the attention of women who don't have a personal history of wanting to be seen as a trans ally.

I welcome this. Different perspectives are valuable and this is an issue that impacts all women. Its effects aren't going to be confined to women who used to belong to LGBT societies, and other women need to be heard. Sometimes I may wince and think other women are being unduly harsh, but they may think I am being a limp dishrag. We can only move forward through discussion.

Gender ideology has been discussed on here for YEARS.

Way before it came into mainstream.

Who were the first who saw as risk?

Old school feminist lesbians is who. Years ago.

@Floisme

And Jeez, if people think it's scary now - remember when Dittany was a regular? I never opened my mouth once.

And Xenia. I still see her around.

IIRC she told me I wasn't a real feminist once.

Of course hardly anyone listens to them so it wasn't a problem...

It’s always been that way,
It’s just people have full mask off. I found the John Lewis advert particularly telling. People seem to say people can wear what they want without having to declare their gender but that board was anything but.

But my fight was only ever with extreme trans rights activists, and those looking to deliberately abuse the system and find new ways to harm women. My fight was never with trans people as a community.

I think with the Nolan/Stonewall investigation, etc, people have become more aware of the ways in which activists and groups have changed things by stealth and that many initiatives dressed up as being inclusive have actually shat all over women.

I think there are many women who are understandably angry about having advocated for so many 'harmless' changes in the past (such as accepting that some women don't identify as women, or saying some single-sex spaces might be ok to be mixed) and now feeling like they've been tricked into an untenable situation where many hospitals don't have single-sex wards anymore and even the judiciary is disapplying the Equality Act in favour of what lobby groups tell them the law should be.

If anything seems unreasonable to you, report it to MNHQ (including Themilkmanschild when that poster on the other thread asked if you'd considered your part in your DC's identity when you hadn't said it was a problem and were seeking reassurance on a specific topic, which was massively out of order, IMO). MNHQ can't police everything so it's natural that they'll only look at posts if someone flags them.

On a separate note, I also believe there's nothing wrong with boycotting a commercial company if you don't agree with its policies, and I don't believe that's anywhere near the same thing as allowing the harassment and intimidation of a university professor for expressing perfectly legal views.

I'm not anti-trans and believe in live and let live but every day I get angrier and angrier at the illogical, damaging, dangerous and regressive shit being spouted by TRAs, both here and elsewhere. I thank all the wise mumsnetters for helping me understand more about these issues. I don't always agree with what everyone else says but mumsnet would be pointless if it was just a so-called "safe" space where everyone agreed with other and patted each other on the back.

This forum is full of awesome women and I have learned so much from other women here. I have never seen any hatred towards transpeople on here, just intelligent women pointing out the flaws in an extremely flawed ideology. That's not hate.

For example this post I find a bit grim tbh
Can you elaborate on this? I genuinely can't see where you'd see grim, but having felt the need to post that, you should be able to be clear about why.
It should be enlightening...

Echo chamber, innit?

But my point was that I still believe that the majority of trans people are not violent TRAs, and they just want to live their lives in peace, and I'm not sure many other people on here believe that any more.

I believe that. I believe (and not just in the context of gender) that 90% of people, 90% of the time, are acting in good faith based on what they believe to be true.

I am very careful to aim my criticism at the ideology and at those who promote the fallacy that "trans women are women and therefore all female-only provisions must be available to them" as the only way, the one true way, that trans people can be supported and safe.

There's topics where I disagree with many on this board. For example, I don't much care whether we keep the word Woman for females and coin a new word for the gender feeling, or coin a new word for females and let the genderists have Woman, as long as when the dust settles female people still have a name and under that name have the single-sex rights, protections and support they need, and can assemble, speak and politicise in their own right without being branded bigots.

Another example - I think if we can just row back from the undefining of sex and celebrate trans people for widening the bandwidth of their birth sex rather than becoming the opposite sex, the overall trajectory of LBGTQIA+ is a positive movement for acceptance and sexual openness.

But I cannot support redefining woman as a mixed-sex group until we have an open and honest acknowledgement that female needs, hitherto served by the single-sex provisions made available under the name "woman", will not be met if those provisions are made mixed sex.

I think it's deeply dishonest that the Genderist movement is not meeting this challenge openly by saying "sex and gender are different, both are valid, let's work out case by case what needs to be single sex and what needs to be single gender and redefine them appropriately", but instead redefining them furtively through the back door by redefining the term "woman" itself.

And while I believe trans women and trans men are genuine in their self image, I do not believe that means gender identity is an objectively meaningful human characteristic that should replace sex.

So for that reason, while I do believe that the majority of trans people are not violent TRAs, and they just want to live their lives in peace, I think the ideology that they are aligning to is damaging to female people and that means I can't be ok with "cis", pronoun declarations etc even to be kind because that is normalising and endorsing something I believe to be socially harmful.

I think that some people are fairly brutal, whilst ultimately being factually correct and trying to retain clear sex based language.

I think that it is important to remember that people deserve treating with respect and compassion, whilst the ideology and the movement can be treated with contempt. I'd like to think that people's tone on here is about clarity of language and treating ideas with contempt, whilst - clearly - toning things down when dealing with trans people in real life.