Does anyone else feel that the tone has changed on this board?

[ViceLikeBlip]

This board has been incredibly important to me, especially when I felt like I was losing my mind because no one else seemed to see a problem with self ID, and everyone else seemed to believe TWAW (or, I now realise, everyone else was too scared to suggest they might not believe TWAW).

You guys helped me rationalise my thoughts, and realise I wasn't some awful transphobe, and I've been really grateful to be part of this community. And I really felt like I belonged: we were pro women's rights, not anti trans rights, and we didn't believe that all transwomen are dangerous perverts but rather we recognised that dangerous perverts do exist, and they will readily take advtange of any loophole that gives them access to women.

More than anything, you guys have been an absolute mine of information - facts, stats, latest developments, and you've pointed me in the direction of news articles and twitter rows that I never would have seen otherwise. I'm genuinely grateful for this.

But recently the mood seems to have shifted significantly. There seems to be a lot of open animosity and ridicule towards all things trans. The recent outcry about M&S letting some people put their pronouns on their name badges felt uncomfortably close to clamouring to have M&S "cancelled".

I guess I used to feel like this was a safe space where I was with like minded people, but now I don't think everyone on here can hand-on-heart maintain that they're not anti-trans anymore, and it makes me very upset to see this shift happening (and happening quickly).

when a lot of previously kind women were subjected to rape and death threats by TRAs, told to die in a grease fire, suck lady dick, etc, their kindness was rapidly exhausted

Not really surprising, is it, OP?

For example this post I find a bit grim tbh

You should find it grim because it's what women are facing right now.

If women expressing righteous anger over misogyny and ill treatment upsets you more than the fact it's happening to women and girls then you aren't ever going to like this board.

@GreyhoundG1rl

For example this post I find a bit grim tbh Can you elaborate on this? I genuinely can't see where you'd see grim, but having felt the need to post that, you should be able to be clear about why. It should be enlightening...

The generalisation. The othering. The repeated assertion that "they" have nothing positive to offer to any discourse. The rejection of any concept that just wanting to live a life free from aggression is objectionable. You may disagree but the fact you are so sarcastic towards my point of view rather reinforces my feelings about it. I don't see merit in taking such an aggressive stance but if I ever say so I'm sneered at with #bekind. I find it anathena to reasonable debate.

You can report anything you think is transphobic, OP. You can also call out individual posters and posts and challenge people. Join the debate.

There's also a bit of a dismissive pile on happening here

… on a thread that has turned into admonishing people, mainly women, for their views?

I would expect this question would always have the same reaction. It is not the first one of its type and they all go the same way.

It is after all a thread that opens posters up to be told they should be shamed for their thoughts regardless of its original intention.

Please could you explain what you mean by "othering" in this context?

And what does this mean: "The rejection of any concept that just wanting to live a life free from aggression is objectionable."

The rejection of any concept that just wanting to live a life free from aggression is objectionable
I don't see that anywhere? Do you?

Blibbyblobby
I disagree with you re. giving away woman as a term to describe the female sex, but it's good to be able to state my disagreement to your point, rather than being charged with being a newly formed meanie, so much so I just dont know it yet.

OP the board is anti TRA not trans.
Also most trans people aren’t happy to be lumped in with people who go around self-identifying for whatever frivolous reason, or who pretend to be what they’re not.

The need for agression comes from the very real damage the trans ideology has done. To the bodies of developing children (by allowing gender reassignment surgery at an early age), to traumatised women forced to share spaces with men.

The term ‘anti-trans’ is bullshit in itself - I never see posters here saying trans people don’t exist (which is levelled at posters almost daily), or they don’t have the right to live as trans.

OP more and more people are just at their limit with all of it, and regular posters are probably utterly sick to death of having to defend themselves against accusations of being ‘anti-trans’.

It is not anti-trans to be pro women’s rights - no matter how angrily we shout.

Also to add all of these outward signs of ‘trans acceptance’ obscures e fact that it’s women’s rights e who have been trampled ove.

For example ‘gender neutral’ toilets being taken from women’s loos and not the men’s.

I think that when a woman finds out her (disabled!) niece has been sexually assaulted in what should have been a safe space, she's entitled to be angry at the ideology and people who enabled a predator.

The repeated assertion that "they" have nothing positive to offer to any discourse.

I've gone back to work out what you're paraphrasing, and I think I've got it. So what positives do you think it offers to women if we permit transwomen in what were customarily female-only spaces?

I had already typed the phrase ‘lesbians with penises’ by 9am this morning and you know what I’ve just hit a fucking wall with it all. Do you read the abuse women like Kathleen Stock, Allison Bailey, Julie Bindel etc get on the reg. It’s terrifying. I’m scared to just be following these people, to just like the odd tweet, I have to think about how it could impact on me, my career in the future because we are not allowed to hold a different opinion. I mean ffs lesbians aren’t allowed to say they don’t want to fuck penises! When they talk about being raped and assaulted and coerced they are called liars! That’s the baseline now and it’s fucking terrifying. People picketing a factually article about the way lesbians bodies rights and spaces are being violated.

I am sorry for genuinely nice trans people who don’t want to encroach on women and girls spaces and rights but we’ve had enough. We can’t even share a measured opinion online - look at Margaret Atwood. She’s 81 and had only ever been supportive of trans people and got hammered with death threats, her address published online, for retweeting an article about the erasure of women which is a reality, she was absolutely eviscerated.

We’ve been kind and there’s no fucking point because TRAs hate us anyway. ‘Enjoy ur erasure’. They don’t care about our rights, we are an irrelevance, an obstacle to be stomped over.

What are moderate trans voices doing to address the issue? To push for third spaces etc. It can’t all be on us, all the fighting and putting fires out and desperately trying to prevent complete oppression and the loss of our identies, our existence, the frightening loss of protection and rights for women’s and girls, the loss of kids who might have desisted without affirmative care where they self diagnose and no one questions them, soon won’t be allowed to question them.

Why do we always have to be the ones to stretch ourselves paper thin and still be smiling and being fucking kind at the end of it. We just don’t have anything left to give.

'The generalisation. The othering. The repeated assertion that "they" have nothing positive to offer to any discourse. The rejection of any concept that just wanting to live a life free from aggression is objectionable'

You know probably all the posters you're talking to are women, I assume?

And that seems like a reasonable thing to say? Blimey.

@longestlurkerever

If you perceive any post on this thread as aggressive I think you need the kind of support that can’t be given by strangers on the internet.

You sound like you need to work on comprehension, because there’s nothing aggressive in the post you quoted or any on this thread, or you need to develop some resilience. It’s a bit of a buzz word at mo in education, but it’s a worthy one. Those of us with resilience means others thoughts aren’t threat to our sense of self.

I have ptsd from csa and even I have enough resilience to not fall down shaking because people think differently from me. It’s a very essential life skill. Try it.

The generalisation. The othering. The repeated assertion that "they" have nothing positive to offer to any discourse. The rejection of any concept that just wanting to live a life free from aggression is objectionable. You may disagree but the fact you are so sarcastic towards my point of view rather reinforces my feelings about it.

But the generalisation point goes both ways - it's not everyone on this board (or any board) who's doing the things you might object to - it's some posters. We're all individuals, just like trans people are.

I know what you mean about being worried to take a middle-of-the-road stance for fear of being shouted down, but honestly, the only way to make this board more the way you want it is to contribute your voice to it and to keep contributing your views, even if other people disagree.

Yes, some posters are aggressive (on here, AIBU, etc) - I've been accused of all sorts of things and have been shot down on many occasions (sometimes by dickheads, sometimes by people who were 100% right, on reflection).

But I find that the best way to examine my own views and to work out exactly what I think on each of these issues is to get stuck in and defend my views. Even when my instinctive responses don't stand up to scrutiny (which happens a lot) I've still learned a valuable lesson.

But I find that the best way to examine my own views and to work out exactly what I think on each of these issues is to get stuck in and defend my views.

This.

People really are constantly challenged on these threads. It does bring about a clearer formed opinion because of that challenge.

@LonginesPrime

The generalisation. The othering. The repeated assertion that "they" have nothing positive to offer to any discourse. The rejection of any concept that just wanting to live a life free from aggression is objectionable. You may disagree but the fact you are so sarcastic towards my point of view rather reinforces my feelings about it.

But the generalisation point goes both ways - it's not everyone on this board (or any board) who's doing the things you might object to - it's some posters. We're all individuals, just like trans people are.

I know what you mean about being worried to take a middle-of-the-road stance for fear of being shouted down, but honestly, the only way to make this board more the way you want it is to contribute your voice to it and to keep contributing your views, even if other people disagree.

Yes, some posters are aggressive (on here, AIBU, etc) - I've been accused of all sorts of things and have been shot down on many occasions (sometimes by dickheads, sometimes by people who were 100% right, on reflection).

But I find that the best way to examine my own views and to work out exactly what I think on each of these issues is to get stuck in and defend my views. Even when my instinctive responses don't stand up to scrutiny (which happens a lot) I've still learned a valuable lesson.

Oh FFS I just can't be arsed tbh. I'm perfectly capable of debate. I just am not interested in this kind of sneering attempt to take someone down because they don't toe the part line. I've attempted to engage before and just ended up miserabie. I'm not going down that rabbit hole again.

I'm not sure OP. There are a lot of different voices on here, and there are definitely posters who I agree with more than others. Sometimes I have a day when I think similar to what you've posted. Maybe it's the tone of a particular thread or it could be one person has been actively commenting on a lot of threads. (Nobody particular in mind btw, just musing.)

On the other hand, I've seen a few threads started recently where I felt the OP seemed to be hoping for a thread slagging off trans people, and other posters have immediately challenged this. And in general, comments that I perceive as actually being unfair/hostile to trans people are often not from regular posters.

I have strong objections to Self-ID and to gender ideology being pushed as truth. I want trans people to be visible, respected, and protected from abuse and discrimination. I am aware that there is actual, horrible transphobia in our society and I don't want to fuel that. But I don't think the transphobia generally comes from feminists. And women should absolutely be free to discuss all this, and be able to express our anger and frustration.

Sorry I just realised I quoted entirely the wrong post. My apologies.

I often wonder why so many trans activists are so committed to alienating women. They do not attempt to persuade or to seek compromise in the form of gradual improvements. On reflection, I believe it is because they are in the main, not trans and subconsciously, they know that they can just walk away from the situation if they completely destroy all social goodwill towards people with gender dysphoria. So they happily dwell in the eternal now, relishing the licence to exercise their misogyny.

@longestlurkerever

Sorry I just realised I quoted entirely the wrong post. My apologies.

Oof - that's a relief!

I don’t think any of the tw I know are going to attack anybody, ever. Nor are the vast majority. But did they ever ask before they started using women’s toilets, for example? Did they ever stop and think, is this ok? Will women be comfortable with this?

Women seem to have to provide the receipts for their support for the trans community before they’re allowed to speak to defend themselves and their rights but that is never reciprocated. Women are just never considered by anybody else before any action is taken. I am angry about that and I am allowed to be.

I completely agree with you, OP.

@LonginesPrime

The generalisation. The othering. The repeated assertion that "they" have nothing positive to offer to any discourse. The rejection of any concept that just wanting to live a life free from aggression is objectionable. You may disagree but the fact you are so sarcastic towards my point of view rather reinforces my feelings about it.

But the generalisation point goes both ways - it's not everyone on this board (or any board) who's doing the things you might object to - it's some posters. We're all individuals, just like trans people are.

I know what you mean about being worried to take a middle-of-the-road stance for fear of being shouted down, but honestly, the only way to make this board more the way you want it is to contribute your voice to it and to keep contributing your views, even if other people disagree.

Yes, some posters are aggressive (on here, AIBU, etc) - I've been accused of all sorts of things and have been shot down on many occasions (sometimes by dickheads, sometimes by people who were 100% right, on reflection).

But I find that the best way to examine my own views and to work out exactly what I think on each of these issues is to get stuck in and defend my views. Even when my instinctive responses don't stand up to scrutiny (which happens a lot) I've still learned a valuable lesson.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to quote your post but the previous one. I wasn't generalising but responding to a question about what I objected to in a particular post. I generally agree about the power of debate. I just find ithat t on this board it generally ends in me being upset and posting obsessively in between ruminating far too much. I just wanted to offer solidarity to the op because I have had similar feelings before.