Does anyone else feel that the tone has changed on this board?

[ViceLikeBlip]

This board has been incredibly important to me, especially when I felt like I was losing my mind because no one else seemed to see a problem with self ID, and everyone else seemed to believe TWAW (or, I now realise, everyone else was too scared to suggest they might not believe TWAW).

You guys helped me rationalise my thoughts, and realise I wasn't some awful transphobe, and I've been really grateful to be part of this community. And I really felt like I belonged: we were pro women's rights, not anti trans rights, and we didn't believe that all transwomen are dangerous perverts but rather we recognised that dangerous perverts do exist, and they will readily take advtange of any loophole that gives them access to women.

More than anything, you guys have been an absolute mine of information - facts, stats, latest developments, and you've pointed me in the direction of news articles and twitter rows that I never would have seen otherwise. I'm genuinely grateful for this.

But recently the mood seems to have shifted significantly. There seems to be a lot of open animosity and ridicule towards all things trans. The recent outcry about M&S letting some people put their pronouns on their name badges felt uncomfortably close to clamouring to have M&S "cancelled".

I guess I used to feel like this was a safe space where I was with like minded people, but now I don't think everyone on here can hand-on-heart maintain that they're not anti-trans anymore, and it makes me very upset to see this shift happening (and happening quickly).

@MildredsMussaurus

I'm not sure OP. There are a lot of different voices on here, and there are definitely posters who I agree with more than others. Sometimes I have a day when I think similar to what you've posted. Maybe it's the tone of a particular thread or it could be one person has been actively commenting on a lot of threads. (Nobody particular in mind btw, just musing.)

On the other hand, I've seen a few threads started recently where I felt the OP seemed to be hoping for a thread slagging off trans people, and other posters have immediately challenged this. And in general, comments that I perceive as actually being unfair/hostile to trans people are often not from regular posters.

I have strong objections to Self-ID and to gender ideology being pushed as truth. I want trans people to be visible, respected, and protected from abuse and discrimination. I am aware that there is actual, horrible transphobia in our society and I don't want to fuel that. But I don't think the transphobia generally comes from feminists. And women should absolutely be free to discuss all this, and be able to express our anger and frustration.

I agree with this, some days I really feel that the board, how I perceive it, is off kilter. On those days I try to step back. There is sometimes threads started that are either anti-trans or posted in such a way to try to evoke reactions that can be perceived as such, I am not sure these are always posted in good faith.

I didn’t see any posts which demanded everyone boycott. I only saw ones from posters who said they personally wouldn’t shop there anymore as they no longer felt safe using the changing rooms and we’re affronted by being forced to comply with an ideology they don’t share.

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with customers choosing to not shop somewhere that you don’t feel safe. I wouldn’t class that as cancel culture.

What happened to JKR was cancel culture. When M&S CEO’s receive death threats and rape threats, when they have their staff publicly and personally attack them, when people are too scared to tell their colleagues they quite like M&S for fear of being sacked…

Then we can talk about cancel culture.

thisssss

Anger doesn't appear from nowhere and is reaction to unfair demands and passive aggressiveness. These provoke frustration, which again the agressor turns back on the true victim.

In this case, women are told to be kind and accept men in womens spaces. They are frustrated and say no thank you, but rather than be listened to they are told to change their minds or be silent, again to be kind as they must give in and accept their wrongness.

It's hard when more and more posts appear about how unreasonable women are being and how our tone or words are wrong. It is so frustrating not to be listened to OP.

BTW, I'd happily go back to supporting Stonewall if it was about third spaces and not directed at erasing women.

I generally agree about the power of debate. I just find ithat t on this board it generally ends in me being upset and posting obsessively in between ruminating far too much. I just wanted to offer solidarity to the op because I have had similar feelings before.

Yes, I totally get that, and I've definitely felt the same at times.

I know this sounds trite, but I do think that advice MNHQ give on threads sometimes about not giving more than you can spare emotionally is actually really good advice, and something I often apply to my use of social media.

I find this board is fab for picking up on articles, issues, legal cases, etc that I wouldn't otherwise know about, and is great to explore issues from different angles. But I often make a judgement call as to whether I need to weigh in on a thread based on how I'm feeling that day/week and whether I can actually be arsed.

I've taken long breaks in the past which have been helpful too, as otherwise I think my head would've exploded by now!

now I don't think everyone on here can hand-on-heart maintain that they're not anti-trans anymore

There have always been a proportion of people who seem to have an underlying prejudice. They were historically always very few and were immediately shouted down and usually left.

In recent years, as the campaign has gathered momentum it's inevitable it will attract more people who might be a bit ignorant.

Frankly, I sort of don't care- no political campaign has perfect membership and MN is a damn sight better than most places.

I just think occasionally having to correct fools who claim to be on our side is the price of success.

One of the funniest (and perhaps saddest) comments I've seen on this board was by a trans woman.

She posted for a while but I think she did suffer a pile on despite her views being very far away from the TRA party line, and that was really sad. I don't think she posts any more, unless she name changed.

I understand why some posters feel there can be no compromises, but I think it is a shame if trans women who are sympathetic to female concerns feel unwelcome here as I would definitely value their perspective.

@MildredsMussaurus

I'm not sure OP. There are a lot of different voices on here, and there are definitely posters who I agree with more than others. Sometimes I have a day when I think similar to what you've posted. Maybe it's the tone of a particular thread or it could be one person has been actively commenting on a lot of threads. (Nobody particular in mind btw, just musing.)

On the other hand, I've seen a few threads started recently where I felt the OP seemed to be hoping for a thread slagging off trans people, and other posters have immediately challenged this. And in general, comments that I perceive as actually being unfair/hostile to trans people are often not from regular posters.

I have strong objections to Self-ID and to gender ideology being pushed as truth. I want trans people to be visible, respected, and protected from abuse and discrimination. I am aware that there is actual, horrible transphobia in our society and I don't want to fuel that. But I don't think the transphobia generally comes from feminists. And women should absolutely be free to discuss all this, and be able to express our anger and frustration.

I completely agree with what you say. I personally agree with what you say about trans people.

But I also think it’s really really important that a feminist board that’s about discussing women’s rights and women’s needs, shouldn’t be continually posting disclaimers about how much we care about transwomen or how we know most aren’t violent or that we support their rights and so on.

Transwomen can address their needs and rights on every other board on here.

Every other MSM has centred them for decades. Every organisation centres their inclusion and needs.

Women get one measly corner of a mostly female forum. Women get one movement just for us.

I’m all for including transmen in feminism, and outside of feminism I’m all for supporting transwomen, but feminism is just for females.

I think the OP is highly disengenuious and seeking to provoke trans bashing or appealing to female socialisation to focus on how kindly we think of most transwomen.

I don’t think we should ever need to post disclaimers here about our feelings to transwomen. I very much doubt Miranda et al need us to, I don’t think it benefits them in any way and I think it feeds into moving feminist discussion towards including men.

So while I agree with you, I think we should be fighting that sentiment. I think we need to fight to recenter women’s rights and women’s needs only here. And not apologise for it or post justification about how we feel about transwomen.

Feminism should only ever be about women. And twanw.

@Mollyollydolly

Not really. I just think women have had enough. It's like Helen Joyce said we need to win, being nice doesn't work. Opinions may have hardened (I think mine have), I reject the ideology and resent having it foisted on me by companies like M&S. They would never dream of telling me how to vote, why am I expected to agree with gender ideology. No. Couldn't care less how individuals live their lives, they are two separate things to me.

It's not anti-trans to think that a company shouldn't be able to compel employees to wear (useless in actual effect as was discussed) pronouns badges, when we all know said company is doing this to gain Stonewall Index points. As someone who still thinks workers should have rights, I am worried staff who don't comply will be penalised in some way. What rights do trans people not already have in the UK? Show me one 'mean' sentence in Kathleen Stock's book. There isn't one. We are merely pointing out the clash of rights owing to misrepresentation of the Equalities Act by Stonewall to pretty much every organisation in the UK. Why have they all fallen for this, is what we should be wondering.

@Blibbyblobby, I agree. I follow some TW on Twitter whom I forget are TW and think are women because they completely understand and convey womens' desire for safe spaces, not as women, but as TW standing with women.

While the TW who want complete blind acceptance sound like very angry men and the ones who demand 'be kind' and 'you will respect me' sound like manipulative men.

@Blibbyblobby

One of the funniest (and perhaps saddest) comments I've seen on this board was by a trans woman.

She posted for a while but I think she did suffer a pile on despite her views being very far away from the TRA party line, and that was really sad. I don't think she posts any more, unless she name changed.

I understand why some posters feel there can be no compromises, but I think it is a shame if trans women who are sympathetic to female concerns feel unwelcome here as I would definitely value their perspective.

On the other hand, I have seen transwomen roundly defended by posters on this board when they have been attacked by TRA's who view them as 'truscum' (an absolutely horrible term). These same transwomen have have had posts reported by TRA's for not following the 'party' line. One had to reword a comment they had made because 'it was generalising about transwomen'! I found their views interesting and it certainly made me read up more about things.

The fact that this board is so highly monitored means that transwomen who are not TRA's can be attacked and silenced by TRA's and their allies. There seems to have been a slight softening in the moderation on this board (probably due to the implications of the Forstater case) which is not a bad thing because the linguistic contortions it was sometimes necessary to use to avoid deletion were ludicrous!

I recognise you from always! Hello! (I name change every few years!).
Hello to you too CheeseMmmm.

I think it's a great shame we have to name change so often - well I don't cos I'm too lazy but we all know why so many posters do. And why good posters disappear.

Anyway op, we get threads like this fairly regularly and last time we had one I said something mean which I later regretted, so I'm off shortly because I don't want to do it again. But if you think the tone on here is a bit off sometimes then maybe it's worth thinking about why. it happens. I don't know of any other board on here that's monitored or reported as relentlessly as this one - no wonder tempers get frayed.

@RobinMoiraWhite

And if any of we uppity trans women comment, we usually get comments attacking us rather than dealing with the substance of any comment we make.

You get plenty of replies of substance to your points. MN is a blunt place, AIBU is far harsher than here. I'd much rather read more of your arguments that woe is me type stuff.

The general quality of debate from "your side" is far poorer than the GC side on here. It would be lovely if everyone were articulate and constructive, but also very boring.

It's not a 'party line' though.

It's a bunch of women who don't know each other IRL (small number may but certainly not loads). Who could be anyone. Who post on here because have done for ages or more recently because only place pretty much to discuss this.

On one topic, that effects half the human race (billions), there's an overall feeling that the gender > gender thing is a problem esp for women and girls.

Anyone can join and anyone can post.

The fact that most posters here have a similar opinion- but not always the same or for the same reasons- is not because this is some kind of controlled group. Like a restricted Facebook group. It's because that's just how the posters feel.

And it's not just here. Occasionally there's a thread in chat or AIBU about an aspect of this topic. And every time it's a resounding response that women are very unhappy about what has changed and what is being pushed for.

@CheeseMmmm your comment is disingenuous. Anyone who does not agree with the majority view gets called a troll, a man, etc and chaséd off the board.

Is it any surprise that women are vv angry about males in women's prisons? Full stop? Let alone sex offenders with female victims.

Is it a surprise that women (and I'm pretty sure men if asked) are not happy with schools having policies that sometimes opposite sex can use facilities, changing etc?

That there's total bafflement over who the hell thought males in women's sports was fair and the right thing?

I mean just so much.

@MrsOvertonsWindow

I agree OP that the "mood has shifted" as you say. And that's for the good. Women are so socialised to "be kind" that unbelievably there's been a wholesale takeover of our identity, sex based rights, legal protections and language. Women are being completely disempowered. And as for what is happening to children......

It's long overdue for women to be fucking furious at what has happened on the back of #nodebate and #bekind

The fact that this board is tediously heavily monitored by those who object to women having the right to speak our truths shows just how intense the determination is to silence women.

Yes to this.

And the thing that really enrages is that WE KNOW WHAT MEN CAN BE LIKE.

We know only too well. How many creepy pervy men are out there. Scary men. And men who just enjoy upsetting/ intimidating women and girls.

And when we raise this it's ignored. Or laughed at FFS. By those who in their next breath will hand wring about couzens, issues with the police. Omg VAWG needs to stop! But OTOH. When YOU raise it. You who have years of experience of dodgy nasty scary men. Then it's lies exaggeration. And literally laughing at the idea that single sex things help because apparently if a man decides to attack a woman or girl there's nothing anyone can do.

But you know. Some women say unkind things. WOAH! outrageous.

@julieca if someone feels a post is inappropriate they can report it, but if they just feel in a minority it could be that they are factually in a minority on here in thinking TWAW.

TW who support women keeping their rights are different as they are joining a majority viewpoint.

I have no issue with TW or TM, but like many I am proscience & keeping women's rights.

Manipulation comes in different guises. I've been on FWR for around 6 years now, maybe longer. In that time I've seen a lot of 'reasonable TW' come and go. I find in the end they all have had self interested reasons for being here and holding whatever position it is they take. A long time ago I also used to think their input might be helpful. I no longer think this.

I have a problem with the idea that it's only the violent threat/ suck my dick anime crowd on twitter who are a problem. In some respects they're the least of our problem because Twitter mostly isn't real life.

It's rarely those people who are lobbying government, businesses and organisations, getting legislation and policy changed that disadvantages women and girls. We need to be just as aware of the disingenuous sleights of hand as we do the rape and death threats

M&S is trying to appeal to more youthful people than their usual demographic.

Where I live most of the women who work there are middle aged family women. I very much doubt they have personally been requesting pronouns to show they have a gender identity.

If this story is true, M&S is just manipulating their brand perfectly opportunistically. They aren’t trying to be kind to anyone.

I am one who intends to write to M&S to voice my disagreement, using some of the brilliant arguments some posters had on another thread recently. I am one of those who said I won’t shop there any more.

The same goes for Oxfam who withdrew a board game from sale which is about women and girls’ achievements intended to encourage little girls. Not very kind of them. I wrote and they answered saying they did this to support their LGBT staff. They showed no signs of doubting the wisdom of their decision.

I am deeply concerned by the erosion of language going on and the spreading of an ideology that is going to do horrible harm to children’s understanding of themselves and the world.

I am sorry you find a stance like mine mean.
I feel like a mother tiger now.

[quote julieca]@CheeseMmmm your comment is disingenuous. Anyone who does not agree with the majority view gets called a troll, a man, etc and chaséd off the board.[/quote]
No they don't. That's not true.

Occasionally happens. Very occasionally. I personally don't like it. Stick to the arguments. And I say that when it happens.

In general when the posters who happen to be on MN and that thread at the time. Ask some pretty obvious pertinent questions.

Any answers given don't answer the questions.

So get asked again.

Then response is you're all horrible. And they leave.

If the suggestion is that women who have questions/ disagree should keep their mouths shut. Then that's not a reasonable suggestion at all.

@Enough4me I believe in single-sex spaces. I still don't fit in here. I have seen women with more nuanced views accused of being trolls. This is just an echo chamber.

Actually I do think that transpeople deserve & are entitled to be treated reasonably when they treat others reasonably.
I shouldn't have to lie to them & I won't.
Treating people reasonably does not include pandering to their unscientific beliefs.

They should be able to live lives free from fear & do what makes them happy as long as it is not at the expense of other people.
That doesn't mean I would ever think they should share womens spaces.

Transpeople are other & there is nothing wrong with being other.
They are not the same as those who are not transpeople, that is why they have a different name.
I am also other (in that I am autistic myself & unable to fit properly into wider society without issues.) as are plenty of people for a variety of different reasons.
I offend people a lot because I'm not good at sugarcoating shit & I come across as harsh.
That doesn't make what I say untrue, just means what I say is less palatable than other people with a better turn of phrase.

Transpeople are welcome to celebrate their otherness but that does not make a transwoman an actual woman, or a transman an actual man.

Transwomen are not (in my opinion) welcome to take that which belongs to women.
They are not a subset of women, they never will be part of what it means to be a woman, they are their own thing which is a transperson.
Why is that not good enough?
Why can't they just be themselves like everyone else has to be without forcing other people to validate them?

You're also right, it is grim.
That is the world created in the image Stonewall desires.

A grim world of allies & lies, hurt & hate where real women pay the majority of the price again & again.

I don't say it's the world most transpeople want, but it's the one Stonewall insist they want & I don't hear many transpeople speaking up against it.

The tone has changed for a few reasons but mainly because most of us have stopped trying to tie ourselves in knots self censoring our posts in case the watchers report to get us deleted or banned.

I think Maya's case had a lot to do with that.
The change isn't just here though, it's happening in real life. The general public are now were many of us were 5 years ago thinking WTF.

Unfortunately, you can't simply say, oh we will only let the nice ones into our spaces because there is no way to separate the groups. The only way to keep protecting females is to keep our spaces single sex.

They claim this board is an echo chamber, yet when posts occur on other MN boards the sentiment is mostly the same.
The 'cis' AIBU thread had over 1700 votes. 92% objected to having cis imposed on them.
Sticking us in the naughty corner clearly doesn't work.

It's not just MN either, I subscribe to other sites with chat rooms and the general public view tends to desire transgender people not being bullied or disrespected, but at the same time not magically changing into an opposite sex with the rights of that sex.