Does anyone else feel that the tone has changed on this board?

[ViceLikeBlip]

This board has been incredibly important to me, especially when I felt like I was losing my mind because no one else seemed to see a problem with self ID, and everyone else seemed to believe TWAW (or, I now realise, everyone else was too scared to suggest they might not believe TWAW).

You guys helped me rationalise my thoughts, and realise I wasn't some awful transphobe, and I've been really grateful to be part of this community. And I really felt like I belonged: we were pro women's rights, not anti trans rights, and we didn't believe that all transwomen are dangerous perverts but rather we recognised that dangerous perverts do exist, and they will readily take advtange of any loophole that gives them access to women.

More than anything, you guys have been an absolute mine of information - facts, stats, latest developments, and you've pointed me in the direction of news articles and twitter rows that I never would have seen otherwise. I'm genuinely grateful for this.

But recently the mood seems to have shifted significantly. There seems to be a lot of open animosity and ridicule towards all things trans. The recent outcry about M&S letting some people put their pronouns on their name badges felt uncomfortably close to clamouring to have M&S "cancelled".

I guess I used to feel like this was a safe space where I was with like minded people, but now I don't think everyone on here can hand-on-heart maintain that they're not anti-trans anymore, and it makes me very upset to see this shift happening (and happening quickly).

I dont remember you being on this board OP but now you come on to do the 'I agree but...' thing.?

Ok.

Usually we get this at 00.45 on a Saturday

I suppose, if you only want to encounter opinions of people which align exactly with your own, an open forum probably isn’t the right place for you.

It’s a shame though.

Many of us have been fighting this for years. Some of us — particularly the lesbians — are facing the fall-out on a day-to-day basis. We've been trashed and name-called, we've lost friends, we've lived in fear of being called out and bullied at work. Just today my partner's been thrown off a lesbian FB group she's been a part of for years because she's been complained about by a man who identifies as a lesbian. There are days when I feel as if I'm hanging onto my sanity by a hair and now I really do understand the nightmare that the Czech and Russian and East German dissidents experienced when their governments told them one thing and reality showed them another.

And you want us to be kinder and nicer and not cheer when we manage to stop this movement taking another bite out of women's rights and dignity and autonomy?

There's nothing wrong with diverging with the group. Without differing opinions, there is no discussion.

@Babdoc

You mention kindness, OP. I think when a lot of previously kind women were subjected to rape and death threats by TRAs, told to die in a grease fire, suck lady dick, etc, their kindness was rapidly exhausted. Kindness needs to go both ways, no?

This reply is kind of exactly what I mean. Its a TRA tactic to take something that is almost impossible to argue against (ie death and rape threats, and calls to "suck my lady dick" are universally accepted to be Bad Things) and use it as a way to avoid discussing the actual issue.

I'm fully in agreement that some TRAs have behaved absolutely appallingly, and it's largely down to stubborn, angry, wonderful women that their progress has been halted.

But my point was that I still believe that the majority of trans people are not violent TRAs, and they just want to live their lives in peace, and I'm not sure many other people on here believe that any more.

Meanies. All of you.

I have no problem with regular trans people requesting certain pronouns, or even proudly displaying their chosen pronouns (but there's exactly zero chance that will ever be "declaring" my own pronouns)

That's your line. Other people have always had different ones.

@Themilkmanschild

I was basically told I was a bad parent and that it must have been something I did to make my child decide they were non binary. Like it was the worst thing a child could be.

I think I've seen that thread and from what I remember, there was one pretty shitty comment, which I can imagine must have been upsetting but that several other posters backed you up. Or have I misremembered?

Not commenting on the m and s thread as didn't read it.

In general i do think there's been a slow change in tone, if that's the right word.

However. This is an open chat board. Anyone can post (within guidelines). That's good. That's why it's not an echo chamber despite what Twitter types say.

This issue impacts all women. This is a v rare area in English speaking parts of net. Where it's vast majority female posters. And can discuss.

As a result the type of posters on this board has changed.

All sorts of women come here to express views. From different countries, with different political leanings. Not all feminist.

That's the result of the shutting down of the conversation in so many places elsewhere.

So, the conversation is what it is.

If you don't agree with posts then raise on thread.

Also remember that not all posters are what they seem. Posting horrible things for screenshots to prove MN horrible has happened a lot.

In the end though expecting a random group of women from all over the place, on a topic that impacts all women, to be a certain way is a non starter.

The talk guidelines are applied just report if feel broken.

I do agree about the shift though. Although not read that thread.

Also remember a lot of women are at the end of their tether. And have lost patience with being kind etc. Because we're being told mixed sex prison is fine, we don't need any words except essentially to be called cunts. And you know. A lot of women just feel fuck off to any and all aspects.

@Gastonia

There's nothing wrong with diverging with the group. Without differing opinions, there is no discussion.

But, as evidenced by this thread, my opinion doesn't really seem to be one that will be countenanced within this group.

I understand what you mean ViceLikeBlip. Some of the replies to your question - which I thought was reasonable - have been a bit snippy. Woman are under attack from the right as always but now also from misogynists like OJ, of course there's a bad atmosphere.

@RobinMoiraWhite
I'm not attacking you personally - you might be lovely for all I know - but I don't remember seeing a decent comment from you, including those on this thread. Maybe you need to sort your arguments out.

but now I don't think everyone on here can hand-on-heart maintain that they're not anti-trans anymore

Oh come on.

Everyone?? Everyone OP ???

I'm wondering what you think you will achieve by this post? It reminds me of how some people leave Facebook groups by announcing to everyone 'I shall no longer be a part of this group!!' and when they leave, most people just shrug their shoulders.

@GreyhoundG1rl

We tried being nice. It didn't work. We've had enough This, in a nutshell...

Agree ^^

Plus, OP, if you thought this was a ‘nice’ board then try reading it a decade ago.

The ‘tone’ changes all the time.

I’m only here after a final Twitter ban, but I’ve read here for the decade I’ve been in the Twitter trenches.

It’s very obviously trended into ‘feminism light’ at some periods of time, especially when the strongest voices get banned, this board almost reads like it’s grieving and there’s an influx of ‘nice & kind’ ‘feminists’ in their wake, until it ebbs back to those who don’t pander to female socialisation.

I prefer the anger.

Every fucking time.

On this board (not a truth replicated elsewhere) I find the angry voices are the ones who know what feminism is, who see through the anti women, anti lesbian, anti children, anti democratic #bekind bullshit.

This board sure as fuck isn’t supposed to be a ‘safe space’. Feminist discourse is supposed to challenge the status quo, not pander to it. There’s nothing comfortable or safe about having thoughts and beliefs challenged. The need for ‘safe’ discourse is why we’ve ended up with #nodebate. With thought terminating cliches becoming academic rigour. With women silenced.

No fucking way should women be silenced.

We can take our voices back any fucking way we like. It doesn’t have to be the way you think it should, but if you’d spent any real time here or in it all on Twitter you’d know fine well the nice/kind/safe space you thought this was is make believe.

A decade worth of rape and death threats I’ve seen go unchallenged on Twitter. Women be edited here. So yeah, there’s some flippant snarky humour as an outlet, a coping mechanism. If you’re going to complain at women here not being kind enough you are in the wrong place. You don’t get to silence women who are rightly fucking done with rape and death threats, just because you don’t think it feels safe enough here. You don’t get to appeal to female socialisation on a feminist board.

'But my point was that I still believe that the majority of trans people are not violent TRAs, and they just want to live their lives in peace, and I'm not sure many other people on here believe that any more.'

Then they need to speak up and challenge the loud voices. Push back.

Because so many things have already changed in their name. Stuff which fucks us over. And loads of trans people as well.

Honestly, come and debate if you wish, but coming on finger wagging, while at the same time patting us on the head.....seriously, do you think we have not been patronised before?

But, as evidenced by this thread, my opinion doesn't really seem to be one that will be countenanced within this group.
That's quite emotive language? People might disagree, as they're perfectly entitled to do. That's a world away from "will not countenance"

I also prefer an unequivocal no. Kindness gets you trampled. You must know this, OP. We wouldn't be in this place if it weren't for the misguided kindness of naive women pretending not to notice males were taking over female things.

For example, I have no problem with regular trans people requesting certain pronouns, or even proudly displaying their chosen pronouns (but there's exactly zero chance that will ever be "declaring" my own pronouns)

I don't give a second thought to the trans community until what they want starts impinging on my life. So I do have a problem being coerced into using nonsensical pronouns (to be clear - I'd probably still use them IRL as I'm afraid of repercussions) but what to you seem innocuous, to me seems insidious. It's infiltrated my work and if I can't find a way to successfully dodge this as a requirement I will be outed as a TERF and possibly lose my job.

I'm not on these boards enough to comment on the other stuff but most threads I read seem to me to have lots of robust commentary with a few hyperbolic comments from TRAs who then exit the thread providing no backup of their opinions or claims.

@CheeseMmmm

Not commenting on the m and s thread as didn't read it.

In general i do think there's been a slow change in tone, if that's the right word.

However. This is an open chat board. Anyone can post (within guidelines). That's good. That's why it's not an echo chamber despite what Twitter types say.

This issue impacts all women. This is a v rare area in English speaking parts of net. Where it's vast majority female posters. And can discuss.

As a result the type of posters on this board has changed.

All sorts of women come here to express views. From different countries, with different political leanings. Not all feminist.

That's the result of the shutting down of the conversation in so many places elsewhere.

So, the conversation is what it is.

If you don't agree with posts then raise on thread.

Also remember that not all posters are what they seem. Posting horrible things for screenshots to prove MN horrible has happened a lot.

In the end though expecting a random group of women from all over the place, on a topic that impacts all women, to be a certain way is a non starter.

The talk guidelines are applied just report if feel broken.

I do agree about the shift though. Although not read that thread.

Also remember a lot of women are at the end of their tether. And have lost patience with being kind etc. Because we're being told mixed sex prison is fine, we don't need any words except essentially to be called cunts. And you know. A lot of women just feel fuck off to any and all aspects.

Yes, you're absolutely right of course.

There's also a bit of a dismissive pile on happening here, which I don't think would have happened a few month ago. I've written some truly ignorant things on here before, and felt so welcomed because I wasn't ripped to shreds for it!

But my point was that I still believe that the majority of trans people are not violent TRAs, and they just want to live their lives in peace, and I'm not sure many other people on here believe that any more

Replace the word trans people with men and TRAs with MRAs and I think you might be able to see the points people are making.

We all know Not All Men Are Like That, but on a woman-focused forum we don't need to constantly be repeating that. For some reason though we do seem to need to constantly be repeating that we know NATransALT.

But my point was that I still believe that the majority of trans people are not violent TRAs, and they just want to live their lives in peace, and I'm not sure many other people on here believe that any more.

Why on earth do you think most people don't still think this? The problem is that it's only possible to have single-sex spaces for women if we say no to all men, even the nice gentle ones.

I don't believe trans people are violent. I do believe that any man who says he's a woman and who thinks that gives him rights to women's spaces is trying to override women's boundaries. I do not wish to give such men access to women's spaces.

'And I was curious whether I'm really diverging from most of the group, and whether this just isn't the space for me any more.'

Eh?

Come on OP. I assume you're a grown up? A space for you? No one knows you. No one has made this a 'space' for anyone in particular. It exists. It is open for anyone to post on.

Like it? Fine.
Like it find some comments nasty? Challenge them.
Don't like it? Don't bother with it then.

FWR has had various flavours over the years. When I didn't like I didn't come much. When changed I came back.

Not complicated.

What are you trying to do with this thread?

If there are posters you think are horrible or have politics you don't agree with. Then that's a shame for you but what can be done?

In the past we had a tonne of horrible men who came all the time to tell us off about all sorts of sensitive stuff. Still do. You put up, argue, or leave. Not tricky.

I’m with the op somewhat. I agree be kind isn’t the answer but I don’t like to forget that beyond the activists and somewhat crazies who genuinely believe sex change is possible, there are many people just trying to live their life. Brains are complex and many of these people obviously believe this is their natural gender, I’m so far from qualified to say that they are imagining this to every trans person and I don’t honestly believe that. That doesn’t change my thinking that some things are sex based for a reason and must remain so, that the whole trans push for taking over women’s rights must be fought, and gender affirmation for young people and also middle aged men suddenly striding into women’s spaces should be challenged and proper suitable help provided. It’s difficult to reconcile these approaches as unfortunate the activist trans and woke brigade won’t accept anything less than complete surrender, and that means that some regular going about their business trans people will be impacted by these new barriers we need. There’s no getting around that, bit what I can do is have empathy for it and also refuse to throw women under a bus for them. I know there are others who think this way. TRAs have created a rights conflict and that cannot be decided so everyone wins.
The pronoun front is a good example, I don’t protest others pronouns, mostly the ones I see are youngish women thinking they are being kind, but would confront any attempt to push them. I do understand the perspective that it’s all normalising this thinking that sex is what you want it to be instead of dec is fundamental and immutable, whatever you think gender is, and the dangerous ridiculousness of the alternatives must be fought on all fronts.

*sex not dec. Lots of other typos too