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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

BBC cotton ceiling thread, number 2

397 replies

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 27/10/2021 13:33

Due to some people's fervent objections, here is the article with the mention of the questionnaire excised.

As you can see, the article stands without it.

part 1

Is a lesbian transphobic if she does not want to have sex with trans women? Some lesbians say they are increasingly being pressured and coerced into accepting trans women as partners - then shunned and even threatened for speaking out. Several have spoken to the BBC, along with trans women who are concerned about the issue too.

Warning: Story contains strong language

"I've had someone saying they would rather kill me than Hitler," says 24-year-old Jennie*.

"They said they would strangle me with a belt if they were in a room with me and Hitler. That was so bizarrely violent, just because I won't have sex with trans women."

Jennie is a lesbian woman. She says she is only sexually attracted to women who are biologically female and have vaginas. She therefore only has sex and relationships with women who are biologically female.

Jennie doesn't think this should be controversial, but not everyone agrees. She has been described as transphobic, a genital fetishist, a pervert and a "terf" - a trans exclusionary radical feminist.

"There's a common argument that they try and use that goes 'What if you met a woman in a bar and she's really beautiful and you got on really well and you went home and you discovered that she has a penis? Would you just not be interested?'" says Jennie, who lives in London and works in fashion.

"Yes, because even if someone seems attractive at first you can go off them. I just don't possess the capacity to be sexually attracted to people who are biologically male, regardless of how they identify."

I became aware of this particular issue after I wrote an article aboutsex, lies and legal consent.

Several people got in touch with me to say there was a "huge problem" for lesbians, who were being pressured to "accept the idea that a penis can be a female sex organ".

I knew this would be a hugely divisive subject, but I wanted to find out how widespread the issue was.

Ultimately, it has been difficult to determine the true scale of the problem because there has been little research on this topic - only one survey to my knowledge. However, those affected have told me the pressure comes from a minority of trans women, as well as activists who are not necessarily trans themselves.

They described being harassed and silenced if they tried to discuss the issue openly. I received online abuse myself when I tried to find interviewees using social media.

One of the lesbian women I spoke to, 24-year-old Amy*, told me she experienced verbal abuse from her own girlfriend, a bisexual woman who wanted them to have a threesome with a trans woman.

When Amy explained her reasons for not wanting to, her girlfriend became angry.

"The first thing she called me was transphobic," Amy said. "She immediately jumped to make me feel guilty about not wanting to sleep with someone."

She said the trans woman in question had not undergone genital surgery, so still had a penis.

"I know there is zero possibility for me to be attracted to this person," said Amy, who lives in the south west of England and works in a small print and design studio.

"I can hear their male vocal cords. I can see their male jawline. I know, under their clothes, there is male genitalia. These are physical realities, that, as a woman who likes women, you can't just ignore."

Amy said she would feel this way even if a trans woman had undergone genital surgery - which some opt for, while many don't.

Soon afterwards Amy and her girlfriend split up.

"I remember she was extremely shocked and angry, and claimed my views were extremist propaganda and inciting violence towards the trans community, as well as comparing me to far-right groups," she said.

Another lesbian woman, 26-year-old Chloe*, said she felt so pressured she ended up having penetrative sex with a trans woman at university after repeatedly explaining she was not interested.

They lived near each other in halls of residence. Chloe had been drinking alcohol and does not think she could have given proper consent.

"I felt very bad for hating every moment, because the idea is we are attracted to gender rather than sex, and I did not feel that, and I felt bad for feeling like that," she said.

Ashamed and embarrassed, she decided not to tell anyone.

"The language at the time was very much 'trans women are women, they are always women, lesbians should date them'. And I was like, that's the reason I rejected this person. Does that make me bad? Am I not going to be allowed to be in the LGBT community anymore? Am I going to face repercussions for that instead?' So I didn't actually tell anyone."

Hearing about experiences like these led one lesbian activist to begin researching the topic. Angela C. Wild is co-founder of Get The L Out, whose members believe the rights of lesbians are being ignored by much of the current LGBT movement.

She and her fellow activists have demonstrated at Pride marches in the UK, where they have faced opposition. Pride in London accused the group of "bigotry, ignorance and hate".

"Lesbians are still extremely scared to speak because they think they won't be believed, because the trans ideology is so silencing everywhere," she said.

"I thought I would be called a transphobe or that it would be wrong of me to turn down a trans woman who wanted to exchange nude pictures," one woman wrote. "Young women feel pressured to sleep with trans women 'to prove I am not a terf'."

One woman reported being targeted in an online group. "I was told that homosexuality doesn't exist and I owed it to my trans sisters to unlearn my 'genital confusion' so I can enjoy letting them penetrate me," she wrote.

One compared going on dates with trans women to so-called conversion therapy - the controversial practice of trying to change someone's sexual orientation.

"I knew I wasn't attracted to them but internalised the idea that it was because of my 'transmisogyny' and that if I dated them for long enough I could start to be attracted to them. It was DIY conversion therapy," she wrote.

Another reported a trans woman physically forcing her to have sex after they went on a date.

"[They] threatened to out me as a terf and risk my job if I refused to sleep with [them]," she wrote. "I was too young to argue and had been brainwashed by queer theory so [they were] a 'woman' even if every fibre of my being was screaming throughout so I agreed to go home with [them]. [They] used physical force when I changed my mind upon seeing [their] penis and raped me."

While welcomed by some in the LGBT community, Angela's report was described as transphobic by others.

"[People said] we are worse than rapists because we [supposedly] try to frame every trans woman as a rapist," said Angela.

"This is not the point. The point is that if it happens we need to speak about it. If it happens to one woman it's wrong. As it turns out it happens to more than one woman."

Trans YouTuber Rose of Dawn has discussed the issue on her channelin a video called "Is Not Dating Trans People 'Transphobic'?"

"This is something I've seen happen in real life to friends of mine. This was happening before I actually started my channel and it was one of the things that spurred it on," said Rose.

"What's happening is women who are attracted to biological females and female genitalia are finding themselves put in very awkward positions, where if for example on a dating website a trans woman approaches them and they say 'sorry I'm not into trans women', then they are labelled as transphobic."

Rose made the video in response to a series of tweets bytrans athlete Veronica Ivy, then known as Rachel McKinnon,whowrote about hypothetical scenarioswhere trans people are rejected, and argued that "genital preferences" are transphobic.

I asked Veronica Ivy if she would speak to me but she did not want to.

Rose believes views like this are "incredibly toxic". She believes the idea that dating preferences are transphobic is being pushed by radical trans activists and their "self-proclaimed allies", who have extreme views which don't reflect the views of trans women she knows in real life.

"Certainly from my own friends group, the trans women I'm friends with, almost all of them agree lesbians are free to exclude trans women from their dating pool," she said.

However, she believes even trans people are afraid to talk openly about this for fear of abuse.

"People like me receive quite a lot of abuse from trans activists and their allies," she said.

"The trans activist side is incredibly rabid against people who they see as stepping out of line."

Debbie Hayton, a science teacher who transitioned in 2012 andwrites about trans issues, worries some people transition without realising how hard it will be to form relationships.

Although there is currently little data on the sexual orientation of trans women, she believes most are female-attracted because they are biologically male and most males are attracted to women.

"So when they [trans women] are trying to find partners, when lesbian women say 'we want women', and heterosexual women say they want a heterosexual man, that leaves trans women isolated from relationships, and possibly feeling very let down by society, angry, upset and feeling that the world is out to get them," she said.

Debbie thinks it's fine if a lesbian woman does not want to date a trans woman, but is concerned some are being pressured to do so.

"The way that shaming is used is just horrific; it's emotional manipulation and warfare going on," she said.

"These women who want to form relationships with other biological women are feeling bad about that. How did we get here?"

Stonewall is the largest LGBT organisation in the UK and Europe. I asked the charity about these issues but it was unable to provide anyone for interview. However, in a statement, chief executive Nancy Kelley likened not wanting to date trans people to not wanting to date people of colour, fat people, or disabled people.

She said: "Sexuality is personal and something which is unique to each of us. There is no 'right' way to be a lesbian, and only we can know who we're attracted to.

"Nobody should ever be pressured into dating, or pressured into dating people they aren't attracted to. But if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions.

"We know that prejudice is still common in the LGBT+ community, and it's important that we can talk about that openly and honestly."

OP posts:
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BloodinGutters · 28/10/2021 08:57

Why is enthusiastic so confusing-it means a person wants to have sex rather than doing it because they sorta feel they maybe should, the same way they approach doing chores. It means they are certain.

Not complicated.

TheHoneyBadger · 28/10/2021 09:02

Cope! Yuk.

Just yuk. I wonder how many penis owning bodies that cyclist has brought themselves to 'cope' with?

TheHoneyBadger · 28/10/2021 09:11

Yes enthusiasm = they actively WANT to as opposed to just they're not saying no. It drives home that point that nagging and pushing and pressuring someone into letting you shag them even though they clearly don't want to is not ok.

Even if it doesn't make any difference to most men's attitude I guess it could get some women to rethink the dynamics of their sex lives and actually question the fact that a man is turned on and happy to go ahead and penetrate her when she clearly isn't into it.

When you start questioning those things it all goes south pretty quickly ime though, it opens up conversations and you hear things you can't unhear about even 'nice guys' levels of entitlement and conditioning to put their own sexual fulfilment ahead of empathy and genuine respect for the person they claim to love.

Then you can reach a place where it's like wow is it actually possible for men and women to have a healthy relationship given the conditions we live under?

I've been single for some time Grin I would happily consider female partners as I can also be attracted to women but I'm only attracted to lesbians and they seem to be rarer than hens teeth these days in my part of the world. Men I can feel vaguely attracted to for more than 10 minutes and who survive our first conversation about a sex scandal or rape in the news are at least as rare. Hence spinsterhood embraced for now.

BloodinGutters · 28/10/2021 09:19

I think freely mostly covers the nagging etc @TheHoneyBadger but enthusiastic covers the likes of social pressure, girls feeling the should loose their virginity, wife’s feeling the owe the husband sex or he’ll go else where, the idea pushes that just because you have a newborn you shouldn’t let ‘couple time’ go and so on. It covers the covert social pressures. It just means if someone is having doubts that’s a sign they shouldn’t be having sex.

It isn’t complicated.

TheHoneyBadger · 28/10/2021 09:22

And no that doesn't make me 'ace' or have a special sexuality of some kind it literally just means attraction and respect are massively connected for me. Once I genuinely lose respect for somebody it's just a matter of time.

I guess my 'preferences' are around authenticity and being able to respect the person and feel they are 'adult company'. I couldn't have that with someone who was trans. It's the antithesis of what authenticity and self awareness and reconciling ones self with the world (ie. the tenuous process of becoming a 'grown up') etc means to me.

It may be called a preference but it's as fixed and out of my control as sexual orientation for me. Once the switch goes off, it's off and given it's very rarely switched on by anyone.... And you know what the people who have those qualities also have the right to have their own 'fixed' preferences (I'm coining that) that rule me out of their attraction field.

To go back to the earlier analogy of dating pools mine is very, very small realistically and the people in it may not be interested in me because they may fishing elsewhere in a pool with 'no one over 30' or 'no one with kids' or 'no one whose bisexual because I'm not going through that again' or no one above a size 10. That's the way it is!

A trans person is likewise ending up with a very small dating pool. It's just reality for us to deal with IF we are grown ups. Setting up workshops on how to get more people to 'cope' with having sex with me is the most alien thing I can think of.

Sorry I'm on a bit of a waffle this morning. Half term.

Clymene · 28/10/2021 09:27

I wonder what percentage of that 10,000 are in the U.K.? Not many I'd guess. Just like the GRA consultation which loads of blue haired Canadians and Americans filled in

PickAChew · 28/10/2021 09:35

@borntobequiet

I’ve been a bit puzzled by enthusiastic as well. It sounds a bit Famous Five, and in context slightly undermines the credibility of the other words.
I fail to see how anyone could have a problem emphasising "yes please" over "if you must".

Is it because of the constant reminders that we should be giving our male partners what is called "maintenance sex" lest those poor neglected chaps become so desperate that they fall onto another woman's vaginas?

Datun · 28/10/2021 09:37

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

There are people in this world who are very upfront about their view that we should all be sexually available to everyone, and that women aren't allowed to prioritise their own satisfaction.
It's interesting reading those quotes again. When I read them the first time, despite the outrage, we seemed at that time, to be shouting into the void. A well-known cyclist and professor doesn't say things like that without being fairly comfortable that it will fall on soft ground.

But what with the Stonewall podcasts, the BBC article, and the desperation, by any means possible, to stop the conversation, those posts have not weathered well. Read alongside everything in the BBC article, it's quite damning now the whole world is looking.

Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet · 28/10/2021 10:00

I really feel for young women in this whole thing as well. It's difficult enough being a young woman in society, navigating who you are, often trying to please everyone along the way. I think most young women have probably done something (sexual or not) they later regretted or wished they hadn't because they felt like they didn't want to upset someone Imagine being a young lesbian, trying to be an 'ally' and 'inclusive' and worrying about being called transphobic because when you are 19 years old, that would be, like the worst thing ever. Of course, in this climate, some young women are going to end up doing things they are perhaps not comfortable with.

Of course no one should be pressured to sleep with anyone they want to, you should only ever date people you are attracted to, buuuuuuuuut.....

LoislovesStewie · 28/10/2021 10:03

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NotBadConsidering · 28/10/2021 10:04

@Helleofabore

Those tweets from that cyclist, whatever name they go by at the moment, are just horrendous.
I have not seen a single condemnation of them or Dennis for their comments quoted in the article.
Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet · 28/10/2021 10:05

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Clymene · 28/10/2021 10:05

@Helleofabore

Those tweets from that cyclist, whatever name they go by at the moment, are just horrendous.
The cyclist is the first person whose tweets are quoted in the article. Didn't want to talk to Lowbridge
BBC cotton ceiling thread, number 2
Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet · 28/10/2021 10:06

I have not seen a single condemnation of them or Dennis for their comments quoted in the article.

Nope, everyone is conveniently ignoring the glaringly offensive screenshot from McKinnon in that article, as well as the Stonewall quote.

Clymene · 28/10/2021 10:14

I'm blocked by most of these men so I can't read the tweets on Twitter but the sheer visceral anger from these men is kind of overwhelming

www.gaytimes.co.uk/life/bbc-condemned-for-propaganda-piece-perpetuating-transphobic-agenda/

I hope Lowbridge is okay. I mean I'm sure she knew she'd get pushback but this is tsunami of hate is quite frightening

LoislovesStewie · 28/10/2021 10:18

Someone please explain how we have got to the ridiculous position where talking about 'a girl with a dick' doesn't cause offence/laughter/indignation or confusion? I just don't get it.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/10/2021 10:41

I have not seen a single condemnation of them or Dennis for their comments quoted in the article.

No me neither. Would it kill them to say it's not acceptable? We all know why they won't, I think.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/10/2021 10:42

I'm blocked by most of these men so I can't read the tweets on Twitter but the sheer visceral anger from these men is kind of overwhelming

It is. That women dare to speak out about their own feelings in experience in a way they don't approve of.

LaetitiaASD · 28/10/2021 10:49

@LoislovesStewie

Someone please explain how we have got to the ridiculous position where talking about 'a girl with a dick' doesn't cause offence/laughter/indignation or confusion? I just don't get it.
I think it's because you have an insane ideology which denies reality, and then you have people on the opposite side for whom the best way to highlight the insanity of the ideology is to use that ideology's own language.

I am genuinely confused as to the extent that "TWAW and women can have penises, be nice" is -

Their idiotic truth
Their mantra which is not to be taken literally but should be obeyed as though it is taken literally
Their mantra which they hope will convince others and become true as language loses all meaning.

Meanwhile, what better way to recruit people GC cause than to ask them whether they agree that lesbian can have a penis?

SpindleWorl · 28/10/2021 10:50

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I'm blocked by most of these men so I can't read the tweets on Twitter but the sheer visceral anger from these men is kind of overwhelming

It is. That women dare to speak out about their own feelings in experience in a way they don't approve of.

It's that, isn't it, combined with their rage at knowing they've been rumbled, in public, by the BBC.

We predicted that there would be an almighty rage as the mythical creature is wounded and doesn't want to go down. It's something of a Herculean labour for us all.

TheHoneyBadger · 28/10/2021 10:57

Let's hope we're close to delivery! Though continuing with the analogy god knows what the afterbirth would be - joking aside actually a lot of young people who have permanently damaged their bodies and health thanks to this ideology would be the afterpains.

Blessex · 28/10/2021 11:24

Tell me this is a joke….

  1. Twitter were not auto finishing the #istandwithlesbians hashtag
  1. They were not doing a little précis upfront on the trending page (altho they did one for the cis with the t hashtag with far far fewer tweets)
  1. Now they ARE autocompleting it - but have done a typo!!! #istandwithleabians

Have Twitter been stonewalled?

SpindleWorl · 28/10/2021 11:33

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StellaAndCrow · 28/10/2021 11:47

TheHoneyBadger brilliant posts, thank you.
"Setting up workshops on how to get more people to 'cope' with having sex with me is the most alien thing I can think of."

I know, right!? Can any of us imagine even considering such a thing?
Stonewall's "Overcoming the Cotton Ceiling" is just horrific. As are cyclist's tweets about "coping" and "unusual vaginas"..

StellaAndCrow · 28/10/2021 11:49

@Blessex

Tell me this is a joke….
  1. Twitter were not auto finishing the #istandwithlesbians hashtag
  1. They were not doing a little précis upfront on the trending page (altho they did one for the cis with the t hashtag with far far fewer tweets)
  1. Now they ARE autocompleting it - but have done a typo!!! #istandwithleabians

Have Twitter been stonewalled?

I believe a significant percentage of Twitter employees are TRAs. Wasn't Jonathan Yaniv some kind of moderator for them?