DD has just called me a bloody T*RF!

[SauvignonBlanche]

DD is home from Uni, she identifies as a feminist and a lesbian but when JK Rowling somehow came into the conversation and I said something vaguely GC she came out with the old TWAW and shut down any debate by calling me a TERF.

It’s scary how there’s no debate allowed, she just told me to educate myself on intersectional feminism but then left the room when I declined to say that JK was ‘wrong’.

Apart from telling her to FU how do you have a debate with an opinionated young person who can’t see there’s the possibility of being GC without being transphobic?

OP - one very simply strategy I have found when someone is spouting nonsense is to ask innocently ‘and why’s that then/what’s that’ So, why are TW women? And get them to explain.

Just like that Pink News guy trying to explain what genderqueer is.

@WiseUpJanetWeiss
You are a woman if you call yourself one. Simple as that. Anything else is irrelevant.

Would you prefer not to? Then you don't have to be a woman. But stop thinking about "social expectations" and think about what you feel best describes who you personally see yourself as.

‘I’m sure an alien civilisation’

has me pissing my pants laughing.

I think @SillyStrings423 knows as much about gender critical theory as they do about alien civilisations.

[quote SillyStrings423]@WiseUpJanetWeiss
You are a woman if you call yourself one. Simple as that. Anything else is irrelevant.

Would you prefer not to? Then you don't have to be a woman. But stop thinking about "social expectations" and think about what you feel best describes who you personally see yourself as.[/quote]
What is a woman? Can you describe one without using the word woman?

I’d quite like to be an alien so I might be that.

@SillyStrings423 if you think women can simply sidestep the gendered expectations placed on them by society simply by declaring themselves not to actually be a woman, you are hopelessly naive.

[quote SillyStrings423]@WiseUpJanetWeiss
You are a woman if you call yourself one. Simple as that. Anything else is irrelevant.

Would you prefer not to? Then you don't have to be a woman. But stop thinking about "social expectations" and think about what you feel best describes who you personally see yourself as.[/quote]
So, females in Afghanistan don't have to be women, if they don't want? They can just feelz their way out of their oppression?

[quote SillyStrings423]@WiseUpJanetWeiss
You are a woman if you call yourself one. Simple as that. Anything else is irrelevant.

Would you prefer not to? Then you don't have to be a woman. But stop thinking about "social expectations" and think about what you feel best describes who you personally see yourself as.[/quote]

Do you always believe people are who they say they are? I am a Nigerian Prince and need your bank details to help me access money which of course you shall acquire a substantial share of, so
DM me. Oh you don't believe me? Why the fuck not?

but stop thinking about "social expectations" and think about what you feel best describes who you personally see yourself as.

But if woman is a social category, then I have to think about the social expectations of women and whether they match how I feel inside, to find out if I am a woman or not?

@Umbalala

Haven’t read the full thread but I also got called a TERF by my similarly aged DD. I said I’ll take that as a compliment.

me too, but mine wasn't keen to have any discussion, it was about JK whose name the local school had expunged as a house title (it was in the media). I quoted voltaire at her: “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.” so worrying this next gen is all about policing freedom of speech and to hold differing opinions.

@MrsMadderRose
"So how can you have a "gender identity" that doesn't match your sex? Surely that's only possible if you think it's right that the sexes should be restricted to particular gender expressions."
I don't see how.

According to you, people should be free to decide how to dress, but not how to identify. Whereas I believe people should be free to decide for themselves how they want to dress and identify.

Gender presentation and gender identity DO NOT have to correlate at all.

[quote SillyStrings423]@WiseUpJanetWeiss
You are a woman if you call yourself one. Simple as that. Anything else is irrelevant.

Would you prefer not to? Then you don't have to be a woman. But stop thinking about "social expectations" and think about what you feel best describes who you personally see yourself as.[/quote]
Oh sweet summer child, it almost feels a cruelty to tell you thats not quite how the world works.

@BloodinGutters

‘I’m sure an alien civilisation’

has me pissing my pants laughing.

I think @SillyStrings423 knows as much about gender critical theory as they do about alien civilisations.

Yes. @SillyStrings423's posts display a better understanding of theoretical alien civilisations than biology or the English language.

You are a woman if you call yourself one. Simple as that. Anything else is irrelevant.

And this is the chain of thinking which has lead to self ID in the female prison estate and women being raped by transwomen who are convicted sex offenders (see the recent judicial review).

So if you think being gay or lesbian is about what gender you're attracted to, and gay and lesbian people themselves tell you otherwise, why don't their feelings and "lived experience" matter, but trans people's do?

Lots of gay people are very upset that trans activists are telling them it's wrong to be same-sex attracted. Because that is what being homosexual is. It's an attraction to either the male or female body, just as being straight is. It's about bodies (not just genitals), as is sex itself. If your experience is that you are attracted to biologically male or female body, you can't help that and society has agreed that you shouldn't be persecuted for it and made that illegal.

So are you OK with those people only being attracted to the sex they are attracted to, or not? If not, why don't those people's feelings matter but a trans person's feelings about their "identity" do matter?

@SillyStrings423 people can identify however they like. What they can't do is force other people to agree, and force them to act as if it were true. Or to treat their belief in their own identity as more relevant and important than other aspects of their existence that are actually rooted in reality. Like their sex.

Oswina

they are social and cultural categories built around the two predominant sex configurations.

That imply what? What does "woman" mean, as a social and cultural category build around female sex configuration?

I'm sure an alien civilization would have their own history of individuals who were accepted as different gender than they were considered at birth, before their civilization had any means to medically transition.

And their own history of the early attempts to change one's sex. And quite possibly, the technology to do so practically on a whim.

This probably wouldn't actually sound new to an alien, regardless of whether they accepted the practice or not.

I'm not sure that all that speculation about the history of trans aliens answers the question of what the cultural/social category of "woman" means, here, right now?

You are a woman if you call yourself one. Simple as that. Anything else is irrelevant.

You really aren’t though.

And that is often very relevant to other people.

[quote SillyStrings423]@MrsMadderRose
"So how can you have a "gender identity" that doesn't match your sex? Surely that's only possible if you think it's right that the sexes should be restricted to particular gender expressions."
I don't see how.

According to you, people should be free to decide how to dress, but not how to identify. Whereas I believe people should be free to decide for themselves how they want to dress and identify.

Gender presentation and gender identity DO NOT have to correlate at all.[/quote]
Why should gender identity supercede biology in policy and law?

[quote AssassinatedBeauty]@SillyStrings423 if you think women can simply sidestep the gendered expectations placed on them by society simply by declaring themselves not to actually be a woman, you are hopelessly naive. [/quote]
I've never said that. I never said that trans men don't often face misogyny despite their gender identity. Or that I condone women facing misogyny either, before you even suggest otherwise.

Because guess what, misogynists are usually also transphobes. Oppressors, as a general rule, have no regard for their victims' self-identification.

Trans identity isn't about "sidestepping opppression". Why would it be, considering trans people are an oppressed group themselves?

It's simply about being true to oneself.

Gender presentation and gender identity DO NOT have to correlate at all.

So the upshot of that is you can have an entirely male body, male hormones, fully male appearance, say you're a woman and a lesbian has to consider you as a partner? Why?

@MrsMadderRose

Gender presentation and gender identity DO NOT have to correlate at all.

So the upshot of that is you can have an entirely male body, male hormones, fully male appearance, say you're a woman and a lesbian has to consider you as a partner? Why?

Make up your mind. Do you think trans people are bad for "conforming to stereotypes", or that they should "conform to stereotypes"?

@PuppyMonkey

I’d quite like to be an alien so I might be that.

But do you get access to the alien space ships with its advanced yet equally very 1970s-style technology? And do you have the right to be housed on an alien planet? And when you have to wear a space suit will painting it green mean they will accept your claim you are an alien just like they are and have had the exact same lived experiences?

If so, do pm me please & let me know if they do such human a thing as drinking coffee with a fried egg sarny, because if so I think I might have an inner alien essence also.

Quite MrsMadder
See Danielle

Whereas I believe people should be free to decide for themselves how they want to dress and identify.

That is fine with me too - what is not fine is telling me I have to agree with them and let males into my spaces because of what THEY say they are.

a) they do not stop being male, and much more of a danger to me than a female, however they identify.

b) they could be lying - obviously, predators will take advantage of being given access to women's spaces just by saying they're women.

Identify how you like. But that's a matter for yourself, not for the law, public policy, and thought-policing other people.