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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Great. Son now says he’s trans.

215 replies

dangermouseisace · 23/10/2021 17:08

I am doing my best non judgemental listening but oh my god.

Middle child is “non binary”. Eldest today says the reason he’s not eating properly and why he was unhappy 4 years ago is because he’ll never be happy as a man, and he wants hormones surgery the lot.

I have been clear about my opinion re gender throughout their lives. I am glad they feel able to speak to me but I don’t know what to do. I’ve said I’ll book him a dr’s appointment, and suggested counselling. I feel it’s a case of too much internet but it’s hard to control that- they find old devices if you put restrictions on, and everything works off the internet these days.

My children clearly have their struggles but I feel a failure as a mother as I don’t feel strong enough to deal with them. I’ve already had time off work with stress this week. I feel I just cannot cope with anything any more. What the hell can I do?

OP posts:
Goawaymorningsickeness · 23/10/2021 19:27

@Lordamighty

I know you are saying it’s hard to control the internet but that is the main grooming instrument in the whole gender ideology cult. Humans cannot change sex & your DS needs to realise that he will never be female no matter how many hormones he takes. This is becoming an epidemic of social contagion, I have friends with similar stories, it’s a disgrace that this is being allowed to spread amongst children with not enough robust pushback from schools & medical professionals.
I couldn’t agree more.
eeyore228 · 23/10/2021 19:28

@ YearsSinceISawYou I was more upset that she felt all people were homophobic. When I asked her who had told her she said she would be told at school. DH and I sat down with her and spent a while discussing that yes there are homophobes, transphobes, racists in the world but it isn't everyone. I asked her when I or her dad gave her that impression and she said we didn't but others said we might be covering up. She's very young in many respects but it's so hard to guide her without wondering if you're getting it right. The school in fairness were great when I eventually got in touch about a few things. They were shocked at the intensity as well and ended up having to give a lesson on LGBT issues because they had had a lot of arguments and upset,

Oblomov21 · 23/10/2021 19:36

My closest friend is going through this. Makes me very sad. Being trans seems all the rage atm.

SisterJude · 23/10/2021 19:37

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Flowersintheattic2021 · 23/10/2021 19:41

Do they have autism?
Also I'd be asking if they was to start hormone treatment etc and become a 'woman' what does that look like in their eyes. Do they want to date men or women. Isit more they want to date men but unable to let's say be gay and happy and if so maybe therapy around sexualality could be helpful? I would be asking what makes them feel this way. Do they feel they are not 'manly' enough.

FlyingOink · 23/10/2021 19:51

15 year old boy, he's probably viewing some awful things. Gore, porn, whatever.
If he is honest with you about what he's watching you might find whatever it is needs to stop immediately; it's likely he's viewing illegal stuff too.
I can't give any more advice than that, but look out for sissy hypno, 4chan, dodgy discord servers (unmoderated chat, basically), telegram or other non-standard message apps, and use of a vpn (what does he need it for?)

risefromyourgrave · 23/10/2021 20:01

I went through this with my DS. He was 15 when he told me he was trans, we went to GIDS, waiting list meant he was almost 17 by the time we got there.
I think we got in just before ‘acceptance above all’ became the absolute must.

Just before lockdown he had his final appointment with GIDS as he had turned 18. The next thing for him was to be referred to the adult service where he would be given medication, be referred to speech feminisation, etc.

I am one of the only people who are grateful that we had a lockdown, as it gave him time to really analyse what he wanted, and gave me time to talk to him about it. I asked him what it was that he wanted out of transition and gently told him that he would never be a woman, no matter how much surgery and hormones he had.

He is now a happy, gay 20 year old man having the time of his life at university and I certainly haven’t ‘lost him’, we have a great relationship and I’m so proud of him. Affirmation isn’t the only choice you have, as long as you can talk to your DS there is always hope to help him accept himself as he is, which is the best result there is.

YearsSinceISawYou · 23/10/2021 20:03

@BloodinGutters

Yes, your impression is probably correct but why does that even need talking about? Let them be. If a boy wants to play with Barbie or a girl play rugby, then just let them.

It doesn't need talking about. The words "gender ideology" never need to be mentioned and I believe, in this climate, does more harm than good.

I can say, hand on heart, that if a 13 year old came to me-as in the OP- and told me they were non-binary with demands of non-binary pronouns, I would totally ignore them.

Might they be unhappy? Maybe? But I would rather they were unhappy for a bit as a young teenager than be unhappy for the rest of their lives as an adult because I had encouraged them in something-probably a fad- which for many, can lead to mental health problems and a lifetime of misery.

There would be no doctor's appointments, no counselling, no getting on a treadmill which seems pretty difficult to get off and for what?

If they announced the same thing when they were over 18, I might have a different approach but at 13? 15? No. it is my job to discourage shit which they don't understand and which might only be exploited by others who won't care if my child's life is ruined by all this bollocks.

So, I might be wrong but gender, pro-nouns and all the rest of it is not up for discussion in my house with young teenagers who don't know their arse from their elbow.

Ilikeautumnbest · 23/10/2021 20:11

I'm not sure why posters think parents are doing something wrong to have had discussions. DS1 was 9 when he started questioning his gender. He had picked up the message from school that you could have a boys body and a girls brain and vice versa. To the extent that he believed quite literally it was as likely you were a boy or girl regardless of your body and how bizarre that we made assumptions at birth.

My child is younger than your son OP so it's a bit easier but it so makes me anxious because I know how quickly school would affirm and how it could escalate.

We talked about what being a girl would be like. Things like clothing were easily addressed, he could wear leggings and nail polish if he liked. Once a teacher asked to speak to me about his nail polish and was very earnestly digging around. I laughed it off and just said oh he forgot to remove it for school as i if I was missing her point.

I neither affirmed nor disagreed with his gender question and it seems to have gone away. I carefully avoid correcting or disagreeing because he likes to take a different stand so disagreeing is likely to make him more drawn to the idea. One of his friends has since changed their name/gender and we use the correct pronouns out of respect. DS said it was sad that she felt there was something wrong with being a girl.

DS seems to have stopped questioning and is critical of many gender stereotypes. I am waiting to see if it comes up again. Its quite a bit thing at his secondary school - high number of trans/non binary etc.

stingofthebutterfly · 23/10/2021 20:12

@CorrBlimeyGG

You'll only fail them if you reject them for what they are. Some people are transgender. Accept it or lose your child (and give your head one massive shake).
And some people, especially teenagers, are easily lead.

I know which one my child is.

LastSummerHere · 23/10/2021 20:14

I have discussions with my children about gender crap because they were mentioned gender...it's as simple as that. Someone mentioned before about the internet being the biggest grooming device and it is. So why would we not talk about and diminish the shit they are hearing or going to hear?

YearsSinceISawYou · 23/10/2021 20:20

John. You are a boy. Jane you are a girl. You might be gay, that's fine.

You cannot change sex or species.

Get on with life.

QueenDanu · 23/10/2021 20:21

Big glass of gin for you from me.

Find me a mother who wouldnt feel whaaaat at this news.
If my son ssid this to be id say ok. I wouldnt pander to it any more than that though because i never forced any stereotypes on him

Helleofabore · 23/10/2021 20:25

Good luck to all those thinking they won’t have that conversation. Because it certainly was not me who brought it up in my house. But a teenager with a rapidly increasing number of friends all declaring themselves trans and several asking for volunteers to receive their binder deliveries.

The pronoun conversation is tricky because it can close off further conversations quickly.

OP and other posters going through this, you have my sympathies.

JojobaFromOctober · 23/10/2021 20:27

I assume OP means gender in the conventional feminist sense of the word. The separation of sex and gender is a useful concept within feminism. It's a useful way to talk about the boundaries between our sexed bodies and the sexist expectations and roles that are imposed upon us, that change across time and culture.

It's when people started talking about gender as an internal essence that everything went wrong. I refuse to surrender the word, though, and still use it to talk about external social pressures/norms that enforce male dominance and female submission. Gender is bollocks because it's how sexist ideas are enforced and it hurts everyone, especially women and girls, but it's not bullshit as an idea unless you think that masculine and feminine are the same thing as male and female or somehow don't believe that we live in a society where there are ideas about what is masculine or feminine.

It's clear to me that when OP said she'd been clear about her views on gender, she meant her views about the relationship between what our society considers masculine/feminine and the material reality of being male/female.

BloodinGutters · 23/10/2021 20:28

[quote YearsSinceISawYou]@BloodinGutters

Yes, your impression is probably correct but why does that even need talking about? Let them be. If a boy wants to play with Barbie or a girl play rugby, then just let them.

It doesn't need talking about. The words "gender ideology" never need to be mentioned and I believe, in this climate, does more harm than good.

I can say, hand on heart, that if a 13 year old came to me-as in the OP- and told me they were non-binary with demands of non-binary pronouns, I would totally ignore them.

Might they be unhappy? Maybe? But I would rather they were unhappy for a bit as a young teenager than be unhappy for the rest of their lives as an adult because I had encouraged them in something-probably a fad- which for many, can lead to mental health problems and a lifetime of misery.

There would be no doctor's appointments, no counselling, no getting on a treadmill which seems pretty difficult to get off and for what?

If they announced the same thing when they were over 18, I might have a different approach but at 13? 15? No. it is my job to discourage shit which they don't understand and which might only be exploited by others who won't care if my child's life is ruined by all this bollocks.

So, I might be wrong but gender, pro-nouns and all the rest of it is not up for discussion in my house with young teenagers who don't know their arse from their elbow.[/quote]
It needs talked about because sex role stereotypes are socially conditioned. There’s decades worth of social studies on the impact of socialisation of sex role stereotypes and how consistently all people reinforce those, even subconsciously. On top of all the kids tv, internet, books and so on socialising that boys should like certain things and boys other ones. And this is amplified by other kids at school reinforces the idea that sex determines which toys or colours and so on that kids should choose.

The op is merely saying that when one boy told the other that the doll was for girls she told them not to be such a muppet & that any kid can play with any toy. From what I can gather.

I’d also be telling my kids they can’t have puberty blockers as kids. We laugh about how the geldings aren’t trans mares and that girls can’t be boys & vice versa. But it isn’t necessarily that simple all the time. Both of my kids are already under camhs for adhd and autism. As it is they just get meds prescribed (first line treatment for Adhd) and wouldn’t have a hope in hell of accessing camhs anxiety support because their anxiety would stop them. Which I’m now grateful for. Because I’m willing to bet that kids already under camhs or kids who can take themselves of to the gp for a referral would get hcp responding with affirmation no matter the parents views.

But being that girls with autism are massively over represented in both kids referred to gids and in the detrans population I've been checking through schools policies very closely and have already told prospective secondary schools we’ll be emailing concerns and the literature shortly and following up formally if necessary. I think one of the biggest problems with this is that schools are pushing gender ideology, either unintentionally because they have no idea how to discuss it without breaching the d of e guidance, or intentionally because some staff want the rainbow brownie points and are happy to throw kids safeguarding out of the window. And most parents have zero idea until their kids come home with their brains warped. By which point it can be too late for some, especially the more vulnerable women ones like my girls.

BloodinGutters · 23/10/2021 20:33

@JojobaFromOctober

I assume OP means gender in the conventional feminist sense of the word. The separation of sex and gender is a useful concept within feminism. It's a useful way to talk about the boundaries between our sexed bodies and the sexist expectations and roles that are imposed upon us, that change across time and culture.

It's when people started talking about gender as an internal essence that everything went wrong. I refuse to surrender the word, though, and still use it to talk about external social pressures/norms that enforce male dominance and female submission. Gender is bollocks because it's how sexist ideas are enforced and it hurts everyone, especially women and girls, but it's not bullshit as an idea unless you think that masculine and feminine are the same thing as male and female or somehow don't believe that we live in a society where there are ideas about what is masculine or feminine.

It's clear to me that when OP said she'd been clear about her views on gender, she meant her views about the relationship between what our society considers masculine/feminine and the material reality of being male/female.

This ^^

I don’t understand how anyone on a feminist board wouldn’t get this.

DdraigGoch · 23/10/2021 20:34

@CorrBlimeyGG

You'll only fail them if you reject them for what they are. Some people are transgender. Accept it or lose your child (and give your head one massive shake).
Some people are anorexic. Should we accept them for who they are too? Or should we try to help them?
NoNotMeNoSiree · 23/10/2021 20:38

@YoungForNow

What do you mean , you've been clear re gender throughout their lives?
I was thinking the same, not sure what that means? Do you mean you've been telling them your stance all their lives?
worriedstar · 23/10/2021 20:53

thinking of you OP...it's a tough position to be in, I know.
All the posters who say they'd say this or wouldn't say that etc...you really have no idea until you are in the position of the OP and it affects your family. OP make sure you get some support for yourself too x

Mummyoflittledragon · 23/10/2021 20:55

This may come from school. But there is a lot of grooming online. My dd’s former school has been captured by stonewall and broadcast a propaganda video created by one of the teachers during lockdown, which contravened the DofE guidelines. As a result, it was shelved but the damage for lots of children had been done.

You may find this podcast of use and it talks about the grooming. grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/grooming-its-different-for-boys/comments

Zebradanio · 23/10/2021 20:56

I would suspect op has made sure they understand the dangers that gender ideology can potentially present to children. The best weapon anyone can have, to reduce the risk of harm to themselves, is actual knowledge. Not made up knowledge. Doesn't everyone want their children to be safe and know the truth in order to make the best decisions for themselves?

CrazyCatLazy · 23/10/2021 20:56

@LittleBearPad

Not always. My neighbour refers to her trans daughter and she/her when we are in a group conversation over the fence, with the daughter present.

Seems rather performative. It’s pretty rude to say he/she when the individual is standing there

Not really, it’s general chit chat and very normal conversation that anybody would have.
Ilikeautumnbest · 23/10/2021 21:02

The op is merely saying that when one boy told the other that the doll was for girls she told them not to be such a muppet & that any kid can play with any toy. From what I can gather.

This is how I understood what OP was saying. And given her DCs age she will have started this before transgender was such a big thing - and challenging stereotypes was definitely a positive thing - especially for liberal/leftie parents.

OP I know others have said it but your teenage children are talking to you in a way many teens can't talk to their parents. Flowers

Oblomov21 · 23/10/2021 21:06

The fact is if you want to be a woman but are born a man, you just can't. That's the sadness of trans. You want what you can't have.