Women must resist arrest by any male police officer and demand the presence of a policewoman

[Turquoise11]

I've never posted on mumsnet before but I'm compelled to after reading reports of the kidnap, rape and murder of Sarah Everard.

Any woman who finds herself in a situation where she faces arrest by a male police officer must resist and obstruct that arrest at all costs. She must not face charges for doing either, since it is potentially dangerous for a woman to be taken away by a male police officer. We can no longer trust the police.

Rather, a woman must be able to demand that a policewoman be present before any arrest takes place. We can no longer assume that there is any rigour in the recruitment process involving male police officers.

Do you think I am being fair? After what happened to Sarah Everard, I think that resisting arrest and insisting a woman be present is essential to women's safety. See below for some recent cases involving the police.

Detective Inspector Neil Corbel was charged with 19 counts of voyeurism in the Greater London, Manchester and Brighton areas.

Wayne Couzens.

Deniz Jaffer and Jamie Lewis taking unofficial pictures of Bibaa Henry and Nicole Smallman after they were stabbed to death.

I’m sure there are more incidents where male police officers hold women in contempt and would harm them if they could.

750 charges of sexual assault against police officers and only 83 sacked

That’s just Met officers - it will be rife across the UK

The people themselves are in charge of stopping themselves.

@Jijithecat

The people themselves are in charge of stopping themselves.

No it isn’t: that’s why we have the police force. Otherwise, what are they for?

The police are not under funded. They have the resources to dance at every pride parade and pet people dressed in puppy costumes, they have the resources to ask people on social media to get in touch if they’ve been offended by anything as it might be a hate crime, they have the resources to send 2 officer to a different county on an overnight stay to interview a mum about her views, they have the resources to turn up at workplaces to “check your thinking”.

This

I wouldn't do it. £20k/yr in London to start, hostile public, not enough colleagues, sergeants with zero management training, no set finish time, no ringfenced days off or holidays, a good chance of getting your head kicked in, half the people you meet are career criminals you keep arresting over and over, you get to see graphic violence, abused kids, raped women, dead bodies, you have to pass fitness tests even if you do a desk job, your pension has been fucked over, your stab vest doesn't fit, and you are working Christmas Day, your child's birthday and Mother's Day.

Nah, no thanks.

If the police forces were better employers, they'd have better applicants to choose from. I say that as someone who has friends in the police. They're terrible employers.

Officers shouldn't be putting themselves at risk all the time, they shouldn't be so overstretched they can't actually fight any crime (that must feel awful) and they shouldn't be tied up looking after mentally ill people because the government has fuck all mental health provision. Investment is needed, oversight is needed, some employment rights for police officers are needed (including protection for whistleblowers).

The resisting arrest idea is madness though. The more you resist the more they are allowed to fight you. Look how black people are treated. They resist arrest and get killed. Being arrested isn't something you can opt out of, and it's naive to suggest you can. Plus if you have been arrested by a violent sexist bastard, he'd love the fact you've given him the legal excuse to hurt you. Camera or no camera.

I've never murdered someone and that's not because of the existence of the police it's because it's abhorrent.

@Jijithecat

I've never murdered someone and that's not because of the existence of the police it's because it's abhorrent.

So why do we need the police?

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]@AssassinatedBeauty
Indecent exposure is also a red flag.
Anything that indicates a warning of something worse might happen is a red flag. Obviously, it’s not a red flag for more indecent exposure, but it is a red flag for rape and murder.[/quote]
Indecent exposure is more like a red battle ensign than a mere flag.

For those not familiar with the term, a battle ensign was a very large flag flown by a warship during a battle to make it obvious who was friend and who was foe. One captured at Trafalgar measures 32ftx47ft.

@PlanDeRaccordement

“At what point should the actual Metropolitan Police force, trained to spot criminals, have decided there were enough reasons to report him?”

You’re assuming that the people around him...other police officers and his superiors had all the information we have now when they probably did not. I don’t think that even one person in management there knew he had been accused of indecent exposure, had that nickname and enjoyed violent porn. All of that has come out in the investigation which happened AFTER Sarah’s murder. That’s why I say we have to be careful about hindsight what we know and not assume that this same information was widely known before he murdered Sarah.

Two of the indecent exposure allegations were made in the immediate run up to the murder. Was the connection between either of these and WC made before or after the murder?

In my job, if I am accused of anything (whether something criminal, a H&S breach, or whatever) I would be suspended immediately pending an investigation. I wouldn't be allowed any contact with anyone at work except management and a union rep. Only once cleared would I be allowed back. I was under the impression that any allegation of criminal behaviour by a police officer resulted in suspension (including removal of warrant card) pending investigation. Is this not the case? If not, why not? If so, what went wrong here, and why?

Hinsliff:

Former Scotland Yard deputy assistant commissioner David Gilbertson has warned of an “epidemic” of hidden violence, including cases where officers in domestic violence units “actively searched out vulnerable women for sexual gratification, and in order to gain access to their children for sexual purposes”. Among a grim catalogue unearthed by the Observer was a Met officer dismissed for taking advantage of a rape victim whose case he was investigating.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep/30/wayne-couzens-sarah-everard-women-faith-police

What would happen to the culture if a large number of women were trained and employed as chaperones?

This is a very good idea, @EmbarrassingAdmissions. Just thinking out loud, perhaps the first recruits could be women who have a martial arts background.
I already do this for my DD and her friends; I shadow them at a distance in public places, as in our area there have been incidences of teenagers threatening younger kids. Random women have looked out for me at various times, and have even given me lifts. I appreciate the solidarity.

@Jijithecat

That doesn't even make any sense. Teachers, property developers, care takers, members of the clergy, taxi drivers, football players, I could probably list every occupation under the sun. People in these occupations have been convicted of rape. It doesn't make it any better because of the job they do. You don't just go 'Bob got arrested for rape the other day but he is a roofer so what can you expect'.

If a teacher, property developer or Bob the roofer stops me in the street and tells me to get in his car, I don't do it. The police have powers that the rest of us don't have. But they are able to exercise those powers largely because they have co-operation and trust. If the trust goes, then the co-operation will follow - now that really is unworkable.

Should the police stop sending lone male officers to female victims then?

What if a lone male officer finds a distressed female on the street?

@Felix125

Should the police stop sending lone male officers to female victims then?

What if a lone male officer finds a distressed female on the street?

1. yes

2. call for assistance

The bbc say we should challenge lone plain clothes police officers

Erm, isn't someone missing the point here? Quick poll how many females would be happy to challenge such person if they're a male ?

@DdraigGoch
Two of the indecent exposure allegations were made in the immediate run up to the murder. Was the connection between either of these and WC made before or after the murder?

From what I have read to date, the connection appears to have been made after the murder because the police officers that received the allegations which were filed a few days before the murder sat on them/left them in their inbox. They’re currently being disciplined for not having promptly opened investigations into the allegations and not informing WCs supervisor/management.

It was a false arrest. A convincing false arrest under the guise of covid. Under normal circumstances chances are Sarah Everard would have questioned why she was being arrested but this was enabled by the laws instigated because of the pandemic. Life was confusing and no knew if what they were doing was against the law/guidelines.
WC shouldn't have been a police officer, but it wasn't his occupation that made him commit his heinous crimes, it was him.
The police have a lot of work to regain the trust of the general public as a whole. There has to be changes, but I'm not going to vilify them all because of him.

I'm ducking out of this thread now.

@Jijithecat

It was a false arrest. A convincing false arrest under the guise of covid. Under normal circumstances chances are Sarah Everard would have questioned why she was being arrested but this was enabled by the laws instigated because of the pandemic. Life was confusing and no knew if what they were doing was against the law/guidelines. WC shouldn't have been a police officer, but it wasn't his occupation that made him commit his heinous crimes, it was him. The police have a lot of work to regain the trust of the general public as a whole. There has to be changes, but I'm not going to vilify them all because of him.

I'm ducking out of this thread now.

You should. It’s the only way to force change. Police officers should be marching for change just now and they’re not. You’re giving them an excuse to carry on doing what they’re doing.

chat in the office and a couple of the guys are trying to say its the same for them - they don't feel safe walking on their own late at night etc, one of them even said that in London its probably more dangerous for a man than a woman. I'm really trying not to lose my rag at their male priviledge! I'm not sure how to articulate why it makes me so mad

@Fandangoes

chat in the office and a couple of the guys are trying to say its the same for them - they don't feel safe walking on their own late at night etc, one of them even said that in London its probably more dangerous for a man than a woman. I'm really trying not to lose my rag at their male priviledge! I'm not sure how to articulate why it makes me so mad

Rape is the main difference, and the massive disparity in size/strength is the other big difference. They've every right to feel vulnerable, they just can't /won't understand why women feel more vulnerable still. It's sympathy versus empathy.

I would agree with your colleagues that men are vulnerable too - I worry for my son all the time. But I would point out to them that it's men who are overwhelmingly the perpetrators, and ask them what they think should be done about it. (And then probably watch them lose their rag.)

that's exactly it Floisme - I don't disagree that men are vulnerable too but I just know Ill get the whole 'its not ALL men' argument if I try to point out the difference

It's why these days I tend to talk about 'male violence' rather than 'violence against women and girls'. Invariably men don't like it but I'm tired of letting them off the hook.

I like that - I will adopt that!