Women must resist arrest by any male police officer and demand the presence of a policewoman

[Turquoise11]

I've never posted on mumsnet before but I'm compelled to after reading reports of the kidnap, rape and murder of Sarah Everard.

Any woman who finds herself in a situation where she faces arrest by a male police officer must resist and obstruct that arrest at all costs. She must not face charges for doing either, since it is potentially dangerous for a woman to be taken away by a male police officer. We can no longer trust the police.

Rather, a woman must be able to demand that a policewoman be present before any arrest takes place. We can no longer assume that there is any rigour in the recruitment process involving male police officers.

Do you think I am being fair? After what happened to Sarah Everard, I think that resisting arrest and insisting a woman be present is essential to women's safety. See below for some recent cases involving the police.

Detective Inspector Neil Corbel was charged with 19 counts of voyeurism in the Greater London, Manchester and Brighton areas.

Wayne Couzens.

Deniz Jaffer and Jamie Lewis taking unofficial pictures of Bibaa Henry and Nicole Smallman after they were stabbed to death.

I’m sure there are more incidents where male police officers hold women in contempt and would harm them if they could.

Perhaps they could have fucking investigated it? And suspended him.

Single patrols are dangerous for everyone involved. This case exemplifies that. We should all refuse, men or women, if there are not two officers until the law is changed.

@PlanDeRaccordement

But not worth acting on? You think this needed hindsight to see?

Yes worth acting on, but easier to see in hindsight.

Three different indecent exposures, nickname The Rapist and an enjoyment of violent pornography?

At what point should the actual Metropolitan Police force, trained to spot criminals, have decided there were enough reasons to report him?

@BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz

Until we recognise misogyny as a hate crime, and society respects women as they ought, these little "minor indiscretions" would be seen for what they are - flags and indicators of women hating men who can (and most likely will) get progressively more violent.

Agree. If we must have hate crime legislation, then misogyny should be one. (I am philosophically against all hate crime legislation)

And closer attention needs to be paid to red flags to help save lives.

“At what point should the actual Metropolitan Police force, trained to spot criminals, have decided there were enough reasons to report him?”

You’re assuming that the people around him...other police officers and his superiors had all the information we have now when they probably did not. I don’t think that even one person in management there knew he had been accused of indecent exposure, had that nickname and enjoyed violent porn. All of that has come out in the investigation which happened AFTER Sarah’s murder. That’s why I say we have to be careful about hindsight what we know and not assume that this same information was widely known before he murdered Sarah.

@PlanDeRaccordement

“At what point should the actual Metropolitan Police force, trained to spot criminals, have decided there were enough reasons to report him?”

You’re assuming that the people around him...other police officers and his superiors had all the information we have now when they probably did not. I don’t think that even one person in management there knew he had been accused of indecent exposure, had that nickname and enjoyed violent porn. All of that has come out in the investigation which happened AFTER Sarah’s murder. That’s why I say we have to be careful about hindsight what we know and not assume that this same information was widely known before he murdered Sarah.

I don’t think that’s true, but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt since I haven’t checked it.

But they did know he was creepy towards women, hence the nickname his colleagues gave him. Would a better system not be ‘he’s creepy around women therefore he can’t be a police officer’?

Is it usual for a lone police man or woman to arrest someone AND put them in a police car, without calling for back up?

@NewlyGranny

A retired woman police superintendent said on R4 this afternoon that she's advising women in her family in this situation to check the officer is using bodycam, agree to get into only a marked police car and insist the officer calls for backup in a marked car.

That protocol could save a life.

This is much more reasonable.

I've a feeling that more than one officer is required to transport a prisoner anyway (unless there's a cage in the back like the vans and some cars have), so that there's no risk of the prisoner distracting the driver.

This murder didn't involve a uniformed officer, it didn't involve a marked car.

There were two separate allegations of indecent exposure specifically against WC a few days before the murder. There are at least two police officers (rank unknown) who are being investigated for misconduct for not investigating those.

Even if a more senior officer was unaware of all the different issues, that is actually further evidence of a massive issue with the culture of the police. Where managers have no clue what their officers are doing, and rank and file officers protect each other from sanction. You can't just shrug and say that it's reasonable that no one had any awareness of what was going on, as if that makes the state of the Met police any better.

Would a better system not be ‘he’s creepy around women therefore he can’t be a police officer’?

@Pumperthepumper. Well yes and you can get a feel for creepy by doing psych assessments of police officer trainees and annually for police officers on the force.

I am sure Met police will do full investigation into who knew what and when, and then put in place better information sharing between supervisors and others responsible for ensuring police officers are safe around women. If anyone did know everything we know now, and did nothing, then yes they should be sacked too.

@PlanDeRaccordement

Would a better system not be ‘he’s creepy around women therefore he can’t be a police officer’?

@Pumperthepumper. Well yes and you can get a feel for creepy by doing psych assessments of police officer trainees and annually for police officers on the force.

I am sure Met police will do full investigation into who knew what and when, and then put in place better information sharing between supervisors and others responsible for ensuring police officers are safe around women. If anyone did know everything we know now, and did nothing, then yes they should be sacked too.

So why didn’t they? Why did nobody stop him?

Apologies if these stats have been posted - I haven't read the whole thread. From The Telegraph:

'Between 2019 and 2020, 160 officers in the Met alone have been accused of sexual assault, sexual harassment and other forms of sexual misconduct. Only four people have been either “suspended or restricted” as a result. A Freedom of Information request earlier this month found that in the four years to 2020, more than half of Met officers found guilty of sexual misconduct have kept their jobs.'

'Meanwhile, one woman every week is coming forward to report domestic abuse by a police officer. At least 15 women – the majority of them domestic violence victims – have been killed by police officers in the past 12 years, while the conviction rates for police officers who abuse their partners are almost half the national average. In April it was revealed that the Met was investigating an officer for raping two of his colleagues an astonishing three years after the allegations were reported. He had not even been suspended.'

“Even if a more senior officer was unaware of all the different issues, that is actually further evidence of a massive issue with the culture of the police. Where managers have no clue what their officers are doing, and rank and file officers protect each other from sanction. You can't just shrug and say that it's reasonable that no one had any awareness of what was going on, as if that makes the state of the Met police any better.”

It’s definitely evidence of an information sharing problem, which could be due to lack of resources, stretched for time, or antiquated records keeping system, so not necessarily a culture problem. Im not saying failures to disseminate information is reasonable, or that the Met police don’t need to improve. I am saying that the other police individuals within an organisation that doesn’t share information efficiently cannot be held responsible for one of their colleagues committing rape and murder.

@toomanytrees

Is it usual for a lone police man or woman to arrest someone AND put them in a police car, without calling for back up?

Yes

We haven't got the numbers to be double crewed
We haven't got the numbers to attend the emergency calls - let alone the non-emergency ones

We haven't got the numbers to ask for assistance half the time

@Pumperthepumper
So why didn’t they?
Because you can’t investigate something before it happens?

Why did nobody stop him?
Because no one had any idea he was planning rape and murder?

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]@Pumperthepumper
So why didn’t they?
Because you can’t investigate something before it happens?

Why did nobody stop him?
Because no one had any idea he was planning rape and murder?[/quote]
But something had happened! He was creepy around women - why was he still a serving Met police officer? And we’re still assuming they didn’t know about the indecent assault. Surely if they’re as well trained to spot criminals, it would have been very obvious?

@PlanDeRaccordement

“Even if a more senior officer was unaware of all the different issues, that is actually further evidence of a massive issue with the culture of the police. Where managers have no clue what their officers are doing, and rank and file officers protect each other from sanction. You can't just shrug and say that it's reasonable that no one had any awareness of what was going on, as if that makes the state of the Met police any better.”

It’s definitely evidence of an information sharing problem, which could be due to lack of resources, stretched for time, or antiquated records keeping system, so not necessarily a culture problem. Im not saying failures to disseminate information is reasonable, or that the Met police don’t need to improve. I am saying that the other police individuals within an organisation that doesn’t share information efficiently cannot be held responsible for one of their colleagues committing rape and murder.

No cover ups ever in the police then? Never protect their own?

WC wasn't just a police officer though was he. He was a husband, a father, a neighbour, a member of the community etc. He would have been interacting with lots of different people all of the time and I can't believe that he was that good at covering up his behaviour in front of them all the time. Yet no one is demanding to know why none of these people reported these issues.
You won't have any officers left if you expect them to leave their body cams on all the time with the exception of toilet breaks or get them to reveal their internet search history all of the time.

@Jijithecat

WC wasn't just a police officer though was he. He was a husband, a father, a neighbour, a member of the community etc. He would have been interacting with lots of different people all of the time and I can't believe that he was that good at covering up his behaviour in front of them all the time. Yet no one is demanding to know why none of these people reported these issues. You won't have any officers left if you expect them to leave their body cams on all the time with the exception of toilet breaks or get them to reveal their internet search history all of the time.

I do hold the police to a higher standard than the general public, yes. You should too, they have an incredible amount of power.

I absolutely expect them to be above reproach. I absolutely expect them to be able to hand over a squeaky clean internet search history all of the time. Your standards should be much, much higher.

We haven't got the numbers to be double crewed
We haven't got the numbers to attend the emergency calls - let alone the non-emergency ones

We haven't got the numbers to ask for assistance half the time

Other matters aside, I wonder if the numbers and culture might be different if women were retained rather than leaving because they report that if they complained about their colleagues they'd be left to 'get their heads kicked in' (posted upthread).

Or if the police officers engaging in misogynist 'banter' on WhatsApp had been at all accountable for it?

@Pumperthepumper I expect everyone to be of a high standard regardless of their occupation. Your standards should be much, much higher.

[quote Jijithecat]@Pumperthepumper I expect everyone to be of a high standard regardless of their occupation. Your standards should be much, much higher.[/quote]
Higher than the police, really? You expect nobody to ever commit a crime? Should we just abolish them completely then?

That doesn't even make any sense. Teachers, property developers, care takers, members of the clergy, taxi drivers, football players, I could probably list every occupation under the sun. People in these occupations have been convicted of rape. It doesn't make it any better because of the job they do. You don't just go 'Bob got arrested for rape the other day but he is a roofer so what can you expect'.

@Jijithecat

That doesn't even make any sense. Teachers, property developers, care takers, members of the clergy, taxi drivers, football players, I could probably list every occupation under the sun. People in these occupations have been convicted of rape. It doesn't make it any better because of the job they do. You don't just go 'Bob got arrested for rape the other day but he is a roofer so what can you expect'.

But the police are in charge of stopping those people. So does it not make sense that we hold them to a higher standard?

Female friend is a long serving police officer. Says she isn’t surprised at all how easy it was for that monster to keep his job whilst colleagues knew full well he was dangerous to women.

There are complaints made internally against male officers conduct on a regular basis and nothing is done, excuses made, swept under the carpet. The next thing the accused appear in the newspapers or on the news. System is broken.