Women must resist arrest by any male police officer and demand the presence of a policewoman

[Turquoise11]

I've never posted on mumsnet before but I'm compelled to after reading reports of the kidnap, rape and murder of Sarah Everard.

Any woman who finds herself in a situation where she faces arrest by a male police officer must resist and obstruct that arrest at all costs. She must not face charges for doing either, since it is potentially dangerous for a woman to be taken away by a male police officer. We can no longer trust the police.

Rather, a woman must be able to demand that a policewoman be present before any arrest takes place. We can no longer assume that there is any rigour in the recruitment process involving male police officers.

Do you think I am being fair? After what happened to Sarah Everard, I think that resisting arrest and insisting a woman be present is essential to women's safety. See below for some recent cases involving the police.

Detective Inspector Neil Corbel was charged with 19 counts of voyeurism in the Greater London, Manchester and Brighton areas.

Wayne Couzens.

Deniz Jaffer and Jamie Lewis taking unofficial pictures of Bibaa Henry and Nicole Smallman after they were stabbed to death.

I’m sure there are more incidents where male police officers hold women in contempt and would harm them if they could.

@Floisme

It's why these days I tend to talk about 'male violence' rather than 'violence against women and girls'. Invariably men don't like it but I'm tired of letting them off the hook.

Male violence is a public health problem.

male violence is a man's problem. I really wish they'd do something about it.

if you haven't seen it already, there is a thread in chat thats an absolute eye opener of a thread to how ingrained 'she was asking for is'

it fits in with the title of this thread about females resisting arrest. obviously if you are drunk and 15 and trying to stop a Male police officer arresting your friend you are far game and asking to be fly kicked to the floor. by newly arrived police officer.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4363500-policeman-kicks-15-year-old-girl-in-the-stomach

if you haven't seen it already, there is a thread in chat thats an absolute eye opener of a thread to how ingrained 'she was asking for is'

Our internalised misogyny never fails to make me feel sad about the enormity of the struggle for women to be recognised as fully human rather than scapegoats.

I thought I couldn't be shocked by it too, but some on that thread are really jaw dropping.

one poster just stops short of saying line them up against a wall and shoot them.

That thread has really made me question humanity

I mean…it’s a small girl that is literally flying kicked by a man twice her size and weight

But no “it’s her fault for resisting arrest” “she deserved it” “serves her right”

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10048901/amp/Bristol-police-officer-sent-100-flirtatious-inappropriate-messages-woman.html

Sorry it's the DM but I can't believe that after all that's happened this is still deemed acceptable? I despair.

Two of the indecent exposure allegations were made in the immediate run up to the murder. Was the connection between either of these and WC made before or after the murder?

A McDonald's worker who was flashed by Wayne Couzens today blasted police for 'not acting quickly enough' after they were handed CCTV of him at the drive-thru three days before Sarah Everard's murder - as it emerged officers knew his name but failed to identify him as one of their officers until after the tragedy.

Previously it was known the incidents had been reported to police, but the fact officers knew his name but did not realise he was a serving Met policeman - which MailOnline can reveal today - will be seen as fresh evidence he could have been exposed as a sexual predator before he went on to kidnap, rape and strangle the 33-year-old.

Address searches show there are very few people sharing the killer's name in the country, and even fewer in London and the South East - meaning a basic investigation would have identified the Diplomatic Protection Officer as the suspect.

Had detectives understood the full picture at the time, it is likely Couzens would have been suspended. Officers are then usually put on restricted duties, which means they must hand in their warrant card and cannot have any contact with the public.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10048991/Police-KNEW-Wayne-Couzens-accused-flashing-failed-identify-Met-officer.html

@Soubriquet

That thread has really made me question humanity

I mean…it’s a small girl that is literally flying kicked by a man twice her size and weight

But no “it’s her fault for resisting arrest” “she deserved it” “serves her right”

I agree.

@PlanDeRaccordement

“Even if a more senior officer was unaware of all the different issues, that is actually further evidence of a massive issue with the culture of the police. Where managers have no clue what their officers are doing, and rank and file officers protect each other from sanction. You can't just shrug and say that it's reasonable that no one had any awareness of what was going on, as if that makes the state of the Met police any better.”

It’s definitely evidence of an information sharing problem, which could be due to lack of resources, stretched for time, or antiquated records keeping system, so not necessarily a culture problem. Im not saying failures to disseminate information is reasonable, or that the Met police don’t need to improve. I am saying that the other police individuals within an organisation that doesn’t share information efficiently cannot be held responsible for one of their colleagues committing rape and murder.

I work in a university. If a plausible accusation of indecent exposure was brought against any staff member, their line manager would be told instantly and they'd be suspended pending investigation.

I can't imagine most workplaces would react any differently.

What's the additional complication that means the Metropolitan Police can't handle thesr most basic communication and HR processes. Do they not have line managers? Do their managers not have access to the simplest of training?

You've got a serious cultural problem there. May be a need for a glacial and expensive lessons learned review of comms and systems as well. But come on. This is basic stuff. They turned a blind eye.

twitter.com/damocrat/status/1443854771631362048?s=20

If you're stopped and asked to accompany police – plain clothed or in uniform – but don't trust or feel sure and if you're already in a well lit public area, stay right there.

Use your phone to call the police and ask them to clarify the person is who they say. You needn't do or say anything else other than

"Can I just make a call real quick to clarify your ID first” and ring 999.

Legit police won't have any problem at all with you doing that and will wait.

If you don't have a phone, ask them to radio through and send another police car so you can be sure.

If they're not legit they will either get a bit arsey to put one last bit of panic pressure on but more than likely they'll realise you're onto them, find an excuse and do one fast.

Same applies for lone drivers. If you're flashed / flagged to pull over by police in an unlit isolated area, signal for them to follow with your arm and keep driving until you get home or ideally, drive into a police station. You will not be done for failing to stop either and again, legit police know this and won't blue light and siren you on an unlit isolated road anyway but if they do, let them know you've seen them by sticking an arm out the window and signalling for them to follow you - no problem they'll carry on behind you at the same speed. Drive to the nearest petrol station, Tesco or any busy area full of people and then stop.

Don't run away, agree to move or go anywhere else and don't be intimidated into thinking you're gonna be done for resisting arrest, refusing to cooperate or failing to stop etc. You won't.

That said don't be suss of all police and create as a standard default setting or think it's OK to turn, run and expect a passing member of public will recognise you're in trouble and help.

The safest place is right where you are, more so when it's within earshot of homes and people.

If you stand still and it's a dodgy fake ass bastard, he'll turn and be gone faster than a fart and you won't end up another gut wrenching headline.

Could have cried when I saw the still grainy CCTV image of that poor lass on a well lit residential area believing that fucker was legit

That is good advice for borderline cases - police officer is a bully and creep and gets off on intimidating women.

But men can overpower us easily anyway. So I don't think it would have helped poor Sarah Everard. I mean once you're calling their superiors to identify them, they've more cause to shut you up. Would people really intercede? Obstructing police in carrying out their duties is a crime.

A really clear message from the police that certain things should never happen would help. So, like the "right to remain silent" spiel. A statement they have to make before you get in the car with them - you have the right to call this number to check police car reg and ID number... you will not be handcuffed unless you threaten violence against self or others ...

In other words, put the onus on police to do things right and show anyone about that this is a formal process with paper trail etc. Not infallible but could help.

I wouldn't rely on calling in another policeman. The evidence about met police WhatsApp groups suggest that predators could hunt in pairs and have the bonding opportunities laid on at work. They do need to excise whatever rot is in the Met Police culture rather than ask women to escalate fraught situations to protect themselves. Why is the Met the only force that hasn't suspended members of the WhatsApp group that played this horror story for laughs? There's something toxic there - have they no HR department?

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/oct/01/met-officers-investigated-over-couzens-whatsapp-group-are-still-on-duty

not RTFT but surely persons who identify as women are included in the advice ? So a strapping 6'6" full back who has decided they are a women would be just as entitled to resist arrest as anyone with a cervix ?

I look forward to the court case on that one.

Of course the polices recruitment problem regarding women could easily be solved if they could persuade a few officers to identify as women when on duty.

(As I've been told more than once, I may not take the whole trans debate as seriously as some feel I should).

Also worth remembering that there is a genderfluid (biologically male) officer in the Met. So if you ask for a female officer, it could be a male (if they are presenting as female that day). Said person has a male and female warrant card.

@Thurlow

I understand why people are saying this. There have been repeated and gross failings within the police as regards their vetting and their internal complaints policies and it needs reviewing now. No one is going to deny this.

However the quick fix is not to say no woman can be arrested by a solo male police officer. There are not enough police officers to work in pairs, there are not enough female police officers to attend all crimes involving lone females.

It’s not a workable solution.

Also all female police officers are not infallible and perfect

Ok well if, the police think it's unworkable, then I think it's down to them to come up a satisfactory alternative, but I suggest they do so quickly because right now our trust and confidence is hanging by a thread and, once it breaks, they won't know what's hit them.

the police think it's unworkable, then I think it's down to them to come up a satisfactory alternative

I agree. I think we're all aware of what's unworkable about our solutions so we would appreciate some guidance from the people who actually have some understanding of the various barriers and their influence.

We may be heading for a Winter and Spring of considerable discontent. The police need the public onside unless the government has abrogated so much power to itself that the police are confident that they can continue to operate in a culture of impunity.

Police Scotland already taking action - good for them www.scotland.police.uk/what-s-happening/news/2021/october/lone-police-officers-to-offer-verification-check-to-members-of-the-public/

[quote SirChenjins]Police Scotland already taking action - good for them www.scotland.police.uk/what-s-happening/news/2021/october/lone-police-officers-to-offer-verification-check-to-members-of-the-public/[/quote]
I saw that last night - what an excellent first step.

Absolutely agree. I know it’s not perfect but it’s a step forward, and shows that they acknowledge concerns and are actively looking for solutions.

Definitely, and still infinitely better than ‘flag down a bus’ and all the other insulting bullshit aimed at women. I also saw an excellent tweet about how the police force seem to aiming to stop there being another Sarah Everard, rather than stopping another WC. Very true.

WC's control room would have confirmed that he was who he said he was and quite probably be OK with the reason he was speaking to Sarah Everard. OK, it would have flagged that he wasn't on duty. But can't off-duty officers still 'work' anyway?
And I'm afraid I think this still puts the onus on members of the public to act (even if the officer 'proactively' offers to be ID-checked). And it doesn't solve the problem of some people needing to be apprehended quickly.
Change must come from within the police force.

Yes the control room would have confirmed he was an off duty officer - but the rest of what is on that link would have raised significant concerns.

I agree that change has to come from within the police, but PS have taken real steps to address concerns here. It’s normally 2 officers anyway, so I feel a lot of safer here - but the new guidance increases that.

I agree with the suggestion someone made about including a spiel similar to the one about the right to remain silent, but about the use of handcuffs and right to call to check the officer is legit.

I'm not sure insisting on two officers present for any arrest would make a huge difference though... There were officers in court speaking up in defence of WC even after he'd pled guilty.

The met police are rotten to the core if they have officers willing to do that, confident that they can go back to work the next day without consequences... Presumably they are not worried about how their colleagues will view/treat them. Rotten.

They NEED to tackle the rot, and they need to do it thoroughly tackling the problem from top to bottom...