Women must resist arrest by any male police officer and demand the presence of a policewoman

[Turquoise11]

I've never posted on mumsnet before but I'm compelled to after reading reports of the kidnap, rape and murder of Sarah Everard.

Any woman who finds herself in a situation where she faces arrest by a male police officer must resist and obstruct that arrest at all costs. She must not face charges for doing either, since it is potentially dangerous for a woman to be taken away by a male police officer. We can no longer trust the police.

Rather, a woman must be able to demand that a policewoman be present before any arrest takes place. We can no longer assume that there is any rigour in the recruitment process involving male police officers.

Do you think I am being fair? After what happened to Sarah Everard, I think that resisting arrest and insisting a woman be present is essential to women's safety. See below for some recent cases involving the police.

Detective Inspector Neil Corbel was charged with 19 counts of voyeurism in the Greater London, Manchester and Brighton areas.

Wayne Couzens.

Deniz Jaffer and Jamie Lewis taking unofficial pictures of Bibaa Henry and Nicole Smallman after they were stabbed to death.

I’m sure there are more incidents where male police officers hold women in contempt and would harm them if they could.

Of the 160,000 police officers you have picked out a few incidents of malpractice by sexually deviant officers or psychopaths.
Whilst all the cases in the thread are extremely abhorrent and upsetting it is not the norm that officers behave in this manner towards women or the general public.
The majority of officers are proud to serve their communities and find the actions of these few as disgusting and undermining of the professionalism of the force.
Anyone male or female has the right to question Authority but the need to have a female officer present upon arrest is quite frankly impossible and unnecessary.

@Turquoise11
Excellent point. What do men have to say? Do any men wish to weigh in?

I don't wish to "weigh in," just to say that I am reading and thinking about this, and hopefully I am not alone as a man doing that.

Also I'd like to ask again the question: what can I do that I am not already doing, which is:
-Be conscious of the problem, and try to avoid any behaviours that could be perceived as threatening
-Discuss the problem with my own children (both M and F)
-Speak against any inappropriate remarks and behaviours by other men wherever possible
-Speak up supportively when women raising issues are not being heard
-Donate to charities that are doing something about it with specialised resources

Please, I don't want any praise or thanks for writing this, or for doing these few things. Today's news, and other recent news about other women, are just a reminder that trying to do what's in the list has been nowhere near enough.

What I am asking for instead is more suggestions from women for actions that individual men can take in order to stop this sort of horror from recurring.

wrt the question upthread about how many men are discussing solutions to male VAWG, I've run a completely unscientific site search of pistoheads:

site:pistonheads.com/gassing/ wayne couzens

I had 2 returns from earlier this year. Neither were from today or more recently than June.

Datalounge gave 1 return.

@saleorbouy

Of the 160,000 police officers you have picked out a few incidents of malpractice by sexually deviant officers or psychopaths. Whilst all the cases in the thread are extremely abhorrent and upsetting it is not the norm that officers behave in this manner towards women or the general public. The majority of officers are proud to serve their communities and find the actions of these few as disgusting and undermining of the professionalism of the force. Anyone male or female has the right to question Authority but the need to have a female officer present upon arrest is quite frankly impossible and unnecessary.

It is the norm though. Most don’t murder and rape - but most do turn a blind eye to colleagues being violent or heavy handed, or being sexist or racist. The police force doesn’t take domestic abuse seriously, it doesn’t listen to women.

Remember, this metropolitan police officer’s metropolitan police officer colleagues called him ‘the rapist’ because of his attitude towards women. Who do we trust?

"Would those good officers shop each other for offending? Or for say, being aggressive in a pub while being off duty?"

I'd like to think so and I believe they're encouraged to report. However my experience is of Early Years, where the colleagues of Vanessa George felt uncomfortable, but did nothing.

That's what I mean about changing the culture.

The majority of officers are proud to serve their communities and find the actions of these few as disgusting and undermining of the professionalism of the force.
This killer's colleagues jokingly called him 'the Rapist'. They seem to have protected his actions in indecently exposing himself to women.

He was allowed to keep his warrant card and cuffs – hell, he was allowed to keep being a cop, full stop –after being accused of indecent exposure.
He had his firearm licence revoked (must have been a reason) but then returned.

It's not just 'these few'. The police (the Met anyway) is rotten through and through, from the 'hilarious' Rapist lot upwards. You'll have to excuse me, I don't exactly feel like fucking clapping for them at the moment.

I screenshot this advice today from Making HerStory - it is quite helpful and practical I think. Pretty awful that it has come to this though.

@Tanith

"Would those good officers shop each other for offending? Or for say, being aggressive in a pub while being off duty?"

I'd like to think so and I believe they're encouraged to report. However my experience is of Early Years, where the colleagues of Vanessa George felt uncomfortable, but did nothing.

That's what I mean about changing the culture.

I'm not sure why you've brought up Vanessa George in this context but here we go - Vanessa George was a very rare case. And chances were made, policies re-examined. Absolutely nobody shrugged their shoulders and muttered about bad apples.

What change do you see coming to the Met police force? How rare is police abuse, do you think?

I am not sure how unless there is a huge investment in the police that it would be possible to have paired patrols and not single officer on their own. I am not sure that resisting arrest should be encouraged as a course of action, clearly for the protection of others there may be times when a female would need to be arrested by a lone officer. I think there needs to be greater vetting of officers and improved CCTV cameras which are monitored throughout the UK. I believe that the majority of police officers joined to be force for good - this is an awful, tragic case and no doubt more information on the failing that allowed this to happen will come to light I hope in the very near future so actions can be taken

I am not sure how unless there is a huge investment in the police that it would be possible to have paired patrols and not single officer on their own.
You answer your own question: huge investment in the police. What's actually happened is massive cuts.

But I think also, in the meantime, a massive tightening on police procedure. Any sniff of any wrongdoing, any violent porn, driving offences, drunk and disorderly, anything, and you’re out. Leaving equipment and warrant passes in your locker when not on duty. Logging and tracking, hour-by-hour check ins. There’s loads that could change now.

@EmbarrassingAdmissions

I don't want to make life harder for the majority of the honest rank and file, but the police as a whole need to get their house in order.

tbh, retaining the police officers who had had questionable conversations about women via their WhatsApp was not a good look. According to previous threads, members of the police force are fully represented amongst those who practice intimate partner violence.

Blue-sky again. What would happen to the culture if a large number of women were trained and employed as chaperones?

This. It doesn’t have to be female police officers, it could be civilian chaperones. In fact it could even be a volunteer post. There are women who would give up their time for free to help and support other women. Ideally they should be paid as EmbarrassingAdmissions says blue sky thinking.

@Floisme

I'm not sad. I don't feel I have any right to be sad. I'm fucking furious.

And I'm annoyed that here we are, yet again, trying to work out a solution to male violence.

Me, I'm with the op. And if I had a daughter, I'd sure as hell be advising her to resist as well.

Same.

I can't really formulate a coherent response on this because of the rage.

Up to police to give us solid reasons to fucking trust them. Until then - no.

@IntermittentParps

The majority of officers are proud to serve their communities and find the actions of these few as disgusting and undermining of the professionalism of the force. This killer's colleagues jokingly called him 'the Rapist'. They seem to have protected his actions in indecently exposing himself to women.

He was allowed to keep his warrant card and cuffs – hell, he was allowed to keep being a cop, full stop –after being accused of indecent exposure.
He had his firearm licence revoked (must have been a reason) but then returned.

It's not just 'these few'. The police (the Met anyway) is rotten through and through, from the 'hilarious' Rapist lot upwards. You'll have to excuse me, I don't exactly feel like fucking clapping for them at the moment.

JFC.

I have been deliberately avoiding the news for the past few days because I can't stand to listen to shit like this.

My thoughts are with Sarah's family. The police have to sort themselves out. I hope any of his colleagues that used that term without taking steps to protect women are reflecting on their shortcomings.

Muting the thread now.

Indeed he should have been sacked after indecent exposure. It is crazy that he wasn’t.

"I'm not sure why you've brought up Vanessa George in this context but here we go - Vanessa George was a very rare case. "

That's exactly why I've brought up Vanessa George!
She wasn't that rare in that nursery workers have time and again felt uncomfortable but have not reported. And sorry, but yes many certainly did shrug their shoulders and try to claim it was just one bad apple. Luckily, the authorities felt differently.

I entirely agree with you that procedure needs to be tightened up and a cultural change must be made, as I stated before.

I do not agree with the Op's blanket statements about women resisting arrest without consequence.

@Tanith

"I'm not sure why you've brought up Vanessa George in this context but here we go - Vanessa George was a very rare case. "

That's exactly why I've brought up Vanessa George!
She wasn't that rare in that nursery workers have time and again felt uncomfortable but have not reported. And sorry, but yes many certainly did shrug their shoulders and try to claim it was just one bad apple. Luckily, the authorities felt differently.

I entirely agree with you that procedure needs to be tightened up and a cultural change must be made, as I stated before.

I do not agree with the Op's blanket statements about women resisting arrest without consequence.

That’s not true - I have never, ever heard of an early years colleague being called The Paedo for example.

I’d love to hear more about Vanessa George being the result of symptomatic issues within early years in the same way WC was within the Met police.

"I'd rather be alive and deal with any consequences than be dragged off to be killed."

By a police officer in the UK? Talk about paranoia.

By a police officer in the UK? Talk about paranoia.
Are you fucking serious?
Do you know what thread you're on?

Nice thread on which for you to continue denigrating our legitimate fears Margarita, slow clap

@MargaritaPie

"I'd rather be alive and deal with any consequences than be dragged off to be killed."

By a police officer in the UK? Talk about paranoia.

On this thread?? Really?? I’d suggest that this comment is the epitome of gas lighting. Unless of course you were being incredibly sarcastic.

I’d love to hear more about Vanessa George being the result of symptomatic issues within early years in the same way WC was within the Met police.

I don’t think WC was the result of symptomatic issues with the Met police. To say that he is merely a product of whatever, take your pick, misogyny for example, is to say he was not responsible for kidnapping raping, murdering, dismembering and burning Sarah Everard. I think he is 100% responsible for his crimes. He’s not a ‘result’ of anything. Being part of the police force is not a mitigating circumstance...if anything it should carry a higher sentence because he was in a privileged position of trust.

A retired woman police superintendent said on R4 this afternoon that she's advising women in her family in this situation to check the officer is using bodycam, agree to get into only a marked police car and insist the officer calls for backup in a marked car.

That protocol could save a life.

@PlanDeRaccordement

I’d love to hear more about Vanessa George being the result of symptomatic issues within early years in the same way WC was within the Met police.

I don’t think WC was the result of symptomatic issues with the Met police. To say that he is merely a product of whatever, take your pick, misogyny for example, is to say he was not responsible for kidnapping raping, murdering, dismembering and burning Sarah Everard. I think he is 100% responsible for his crimes. He’s not a ‘result’ of anything. Being part of the police force is not a mitigating circumstance...if anything it should carry a higher sentence because he was in a privileged position of trust.

No, I think the opposite. WC is exactly what happens when we have a police force who protect their own above all, who breed misogyny and racism and who have an incredible amount of power with very little checking of how they wield it.

Not to mention the many, many bad apples within the police force.

Oh, and she suggested dialling 999 if an officer tried to force you into an unmarked car. And she said as a woman police officer, she dealt with sexism from her colleagues herself and never reported, through fear that when she called for backup in a tight spot, response might be slow and male colleagues would leave her to get her head kicked in. 🙄