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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Do we have it anywhere on record that Stonewall does/does not support people to express their sexuality as exclusively homosexual?

591 replies

JustcameoutGC · 30/08/2021 10:16

The expectation that lesbians accept partners with penises was one of the things that really made me start questioning gender identity politics more closely.

Exclusively homosexual lesbian spaces have disappeared as viewed to be transphobic. Just look on any lesbian dating apps and many of the users are male and be-penised. Some may be fine with this, but all of my lesbian friends are not, and they feel very disenfranchised, but equally they feel unable to speak out. Just look at what happened in Manchester.

I just can't wrap my head around how the prevoiusly stalwart and highly effective champion of gay rights has now essentially outlawed exclusive homosexuality.

Have they made any statements that make this stance clear? Have they actively said they do not support exclusively homosexual spaces?

OP posts:
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8
BilindaB · 30/08/2021 15:09

I answered that. Yes they can define themselves as they want. I don't have an opinion on what Stonewall's position should be.

BilindaB · 30/08/2021 15:14

My beef was with the opening paragraph. I've addressed that. The rest of the post I can see both sides of. In this case I don't want to tell trans-exclusionary lesbians what they should want.

nauticant · 30/08/2021 15:17

So would you agree that if a lesbian says "I will not date or have sex with any male people, including transwomen" then that's perfectly reasonable? And that anyone attacking her for holding this position is being homophobic?

FFSFFSFFS · 30/08/2021 15:22

If you look on stonewalls Twitter a few days ago it was delighted to be supporting the proposed opening of Edinburghs first lesbian bar….by…..you guessed it…..a penis person. I was surprised that there was not more talk of this. I was astounded by it. Blatantly homophobic. In plain sight.

FFSFFSFFS · 30/08/2021 15:25

6 days ago was the post

Artichokeleaves · 30/08/2021 15:28

The thread is predicated on the lie that this is some mainstream trans view, it is not.

Prove it.

Link to the sites and the tweets proving that the 'mainstream trans view' whatever that may be, is that female homosexuals are welcome and supported in identifying themselves as having exclusively sex based attraction to other biological females, and to have groups of their own. Show me the newspaper articles defending the rights of the man yesterday to be homosexual in peace and support of the LGBT+ community. I can pull up dozens of truly awful pieces of evidence to the contrary that you say is a minority.

Show me the evidence that proves me wrong. Please.

BilindaB · 30/08/2021 15:29

The burden of proof is on the claimant.

Artichokeleaves · 30/08/2021 15:32

@BilindaB

The burden of proof is on the claimant.
A wealth of evidence has been offered to you on this thread.

You claim it is not true. You claim that there is mainstream overwhelming majority views against it.

Where are they? Because I can't find them. I can't find a single one.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 30/08/2021 15:35

The burden of proof is on the claimant.

We've provided evidence that it is a problem on social media. Your turn.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 30/08/2021 15:36

In this case I don't want to tell trans-exclusionary lesbians what they should want.

Why are you framing women who are sexually attracted exclusively to women, ie lesbians, as "trans exclusionary"?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 30/08/2021 15:38

This is suggestive of the wider problem here.

Floisme · 30/08/2021 15:50

Excuse me can we just rewind?

I'm on the dating apps for gay women and I see all sorts of people, straight men, couples, straight women who are not interested in anything at all with other women

Look this isn't my world but what the fuck are straight people doing on a dating app for gay women?

And why is this shrugged off as something you can just scroll past?
Why should anyone have to?

RedDogsBeg · 30/08/2021 15:58

I don't want to tell trans-exclusionary lesbians what they should want.

trans-exclusionary lesbians, what a give away.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 30/08/2021 16:28

Male-exclusionary lesbians would be a tautology, and if by trans-exclusionary Bilinda means transwoman-exclusionary, that's the same thing. I expect many lesbians are also reluctant to date transmen, who are female but don't identify as women. Women who are only sexually attracted by other women are not likely to want to get involved with females who aren't at ease with their femaleness.

FrankButchersDickieBow · 30/08/2021 16:31

trans-exclusionary lesbians

Lesbians are not trans-exclusionary ffs. Unless you hold the stance that lesbians can have cocks. Which is homophobic.

So are you a homophobe?

EarthSight · 30/08/2021 16:40

@BilindaB

'The expectation that lesbians accept partners with penises'

Who expects this? Not the vast majority of trans people. It's a bullshit myth put around by transphobes.

@BilindaB If you feel that women should have the right to only date other biological females, if you feel that people should have a right to have sexual preferences generally (which doesn't make them bad people, 'phobic' or misguided), I do hope that you will stick up for them online if you ever see a case of them being harassed for expressing their sexual orientation.
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 30/08/2021 17:03

They can define themselves as they like. If someone wanted to set up a trans-exclusionary dating app, who would stop them?

Giggle's founder is trying to set up a female-only dating section as part of the Giggle app. There is a thread right now about her crowdfunding page for the app being banned from Kickstarter.

I happen to have a Kickstarter account, so I can tell you I've seen a lot of Kickstarters for material that denigrates women. But they were permitted.

CharlieParley · 30/08/2021 17:04

@JustcameoutGC

The expectation that lesbians accept partners with penises was one of the things that really made me start questioning gender identity politics more closely.

Exclusively homosexual lesbian spaces have disappeared as viewed to be transphobic. Just look on any lesbian dating apps and many of the users are male and be-penised. Some may be fine with this, but all of my lesbian friends are not, and they feel very disenfranchised, but equally they feel unable to speak out. Just look at what happened in Manchester.

I just can't wrap my head around how the prevoiusly stalwart and highly effective champion of gay rights has now essentially outlawed exclusive homosexuality.

Have they made any statements that make this stance clear? Have they actively said they do not support exclusively homosexual spaces?

In 2018, Stonewall were asked to support the following statement:

“Exclusive same sex attraction is a valid and real sexuality, there is absolutely nothing objectionable about being exclusively same sex attracted, and those who are should be able to live their sexuality free from any form of hate, discrimination, coercion or harassment, and are fully supported by our organisation as part of the LGBT community".

Stonewall's response:

"We cannot help you with that."

From
Female Only Provision:
A Women and Girls in Scotland Report
Page 55f.
wgscotland.org.uk/reports/

Stealhsquirrelnutkin · 30/08/2021 17:13

Look this isn't my world but what the fuck are straight people doing on a dating app for gay women?

And why is this shrugged off as something you can just scroll past?
Why should anyone have to?

The worst of it is that there is no option to filter out those straight people and people born male who demand to be accepted as lesbian females. It's a total waste of time, saps energy and makes using the apps a miserable experience.

Women who state in their profiles that they are only interested in women born women looking for an exclusively female relationship get reported and banned for "hate".

The only dating app that doesn't do this is Giggle, which started out being open to anyone who identified as a woman or girl, but had to change the policy when males identifying as females flooded the app with horrific abuse. Watching the woman who created the app gaining her education at the hands of abusive transwomen was fascinating.

Now the app requires new members to prove their sex by uploading photos in real time. I'm a fat old woman with PCOS and had to upload 7 photos before the app accepted me. Sallie Grover, who created the app says some men are so determined to be validated by the app that they upload vast numbers of photos, last I heard the maximum attempts by a single bloke was 64 photos taken one after the other.

The fury over women having anything to themselves has to be seen to be believed. Though of course any woman who has ever said NO to a man is likely to have experienced it to some degree or other.

Original poster
JustcameoutGC · 30/08/2021 17:13

Fucking hell.
Bilinda, suggestionsplease

I hope it doesn't appear like I keep picking on you, but you are here and engaging, and so far at least have not said lesbians who won't date people with penises are transphobic.

So, Stonewall refused to support a statement confirming the legitimacy of exclusive same sex attraction sexuality, and have refused to confirm if this group of gay people are included in the community they support.

Can you see how horrific this is to those affected. To have your champion abandon you, and allow you to be labelled a bigot. Talk about the love that dare not speak its name.

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 30/08/2021 17:14

The thread is predicated on the lie that this is some mainstream trans view, it is not.

Oh give it a rest. It is a common position on social media. And that is what is absolutely shameful, and your minimising and dismissal of it, not pointing it out.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 30/08/2021 17:37

The issue is that there is no pushback.

You can keep saying it's just a bonkers minority, but if it is, why are only people like us challenging it? What does it do to same-sex attracted young women to see these views voiced and unchallenged by organisations like Stonewall UK? Well, lots of women here know, because they were that woman, or they have a lesbian daughter.

HeddaAga · 30/08/2021 17:45

@SapphosRock

This Q&A is very illuminating

www.stonewall.org.uk/truth-about-trans#trans-women-refuges

The attached screen shot from the Q&A shows that no, Stonewall does not support exclusive same sex attraction.

'First and foremost we have to recognise that trans women are women and trans men are men.' So there we have it. Coercion. In Stonewall's view the category 'women' includes men.
Helleofabore · 30/08/2021 17:50

Sorry, have I missed the evidence of the ‘majority’ of trans people standing up to defend lesbians?

Have I missed the evidence that Stonewall have come out (Lesbian week would be a good time to have done it) and said, please all those harassing and abusing lesbians, including young lesbians, for stating their sexual boundaries, just stop as it is completely unacceptable?

Have I missed the evidence presented that the majority do not support it, or even support it by remaining silent?

And by whose authority are we taking these posters telling us it is a minority view? Is this because they have a couple of friends who tell them this? What authority do they have that we should believe them?

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 30/08/2021 17:52

If someone wanted to set up a trans-exclusionary dating app, who would stop them?

But would lesbians want a tran-exclusionary dating app, which would exclude transmen and female-born non-binary people? Surely lesbians just want a simple same-sex dating app?