Do we have it anywhere on record that Stonewall does/does not support people to express their sexuality as exclusively homosexual?

[JustcameoutGC]

The expectation that lesbians accept partners with penises was one of the things that really made me start questioning gender identity politics more closely.

Exclusively homosexual lesbian spaces have disappeared as viewed to be transphobic. Just look on any lesbian dating apps and many of the users are male and be-penised. Some may be fine with this, but all of my lesbian friends are not, and they feel very disenfranchised, but equally they feel unable to speak out. Just look at what happened in Manchester.

I just can't wrap my head around how the prevoiusly stalwart and highly effective champion of gay rights has now essentially outlawed exclusive homosexuality.

Have they made any statements that make this stance clear? Have they actively said they do not support exclusively homosexual spaces?

Although gender identity and sexuality should not be conflated, to be absolutist about this is not realistic for young people growing up in these times and experiencing the general confusion and stress of adolescence.

Are you implying that your sexuality is a choice? Why is it not realistic to think that most adolescents will absolutely know what sex or sexes they are attracted/ not attracted to?

BilindaB, here is a visual aid which helps explain the problem:

I think you should take a look at this thread, which is definitely NSFW.

archive.is/bBshL

Now, please show us the 'vast majority' (your phrase, I think) of lovely trans folks heartily condemning this sort of behaviour? Where are the thousands of outraged tweets from trans people asserting everyone's right to choose their partners on the basis of sex? Where are all the thousands of emails to the Graun and the Mail and the Telegraph and the BBC and their MPs and the PM, protesting this sort of harassment and intimidation, which targets sex and/or sexual orientation? For that matter, why are trans people not standing up for women's right to safety, privacy, and dignity when in states of undress, when needing a refuge from male violence, when in prison, when in hospital? (And by "woman" I mean "adult human female; human adult who does not have a Y chromosome", which I think you will find is the majority view.)

Stonewall was set up to promote and protect the rights of gays and lesbians. Now they won't even say that they will do the very thing they were set up for, as CharlieParley informed us: 'We can't help you with that':

unherd.com/2021/08/stonewalls-greatest-betrayal/

@aliasundercover

Some lesbians are in relationships with transwomen.

A woman in a relationship with a transwoman is not a lesbian.

A woman in a relationship with a transwoman may be a lesbian. I was married to a man for a long time and I'm a lesbian.

But it was a heterosexual relationship.

And a lesbian in a relationship with a transwoman is also in a heterosexual relationship. She might have any number of reasons to be so, but it's not a lesbian relationship just by dint of her being a lesbian, anymore than my marriage to a man made it a lesbian marriage just because I'm a lesbian.

suggestionsplease1

"Young people" are not a monolith. There are lesbian and gay teenagers out there who know they are same-sex attracted and want groups that support their right to exist as same-sex attracted people. Young people who do not want to be browbeaten into "coping" with being the sex dispenser and validation dispenser for someone they're not attracted to.

Conversation with two 17 year olds a couple of days ago, very frustrated with a transmasc person in their friendship group who is boring everyone to tears with the navel-gazing.
One 17yo said "It's not fucking complicated. If you like pussy and you have a pussy, you're a lesbian. If you've got a knob, you're a bloke."

Outside a bullshit bubble on TikTok, quite a lot of young people I know have that perspective. It's ridiculously refreshing, tbh.

personally, the terminology isn't my cup of tea, but I get over it because it is at least connected to reality.

@suggestionsplease1

I don't see that Stonewall have denied the right of any individual to choose their sexual partners on the basis of any reason whatsoever.

There seems to be this weird idea that a trans lesbian can expect someone to have sex with them

You have totally missed the point of my post. It's not about right to say no on a case by case basis, it's about the right to say upfront "I'm gay/lesbian and that means I'm same-sex attracted".

Stonewall and TRA's redefinition of the words Gay and Lesbian (in support of their redefinition of the words Man and Woman) has taken that right away so it can be conferred on people who want to say "I'm gay/lesbian and that means I'm attracted to either sex but only one gender (my own, which also forces me to have a gender identity)"

Putting same sex attracted people back in the dark ages of having their sexuality denied by people who think they just haven't met the right cock/cunt yet.

Try reading my post again and seeing what's actually there not what you expect to see.

With respect to "Claims that sex is meaningless" and how this is not supposed to be a thing, well, it is a thing that trans activists are continually going on about:

twitter.com/LabelFreeBrands/status/1378521859629588482

if gender is on a spectrum then homosexuality doesn't really exist because it can only exist in a binary

• Joy Everingham (note the vicar's dog collar)

One 17yo said "It's not fucking complicated. If you like pussy and you have a pussy, you're a lesbian. If you've got a knob, you're a bloke."

From my own experience and that of anyone I've ever known who was 17 at some point the attitude towards sex and dating is pretty basic to say the least, which is why I can't understand why so many teenagers are falling for this ideology.

@aliasundercover

Some lesbians are in relationships with transwomen.

A woman in a relationship with a transwoman is not a lesbian.

I think that's for her to decide. If all her other partners weren't trans, then she meets a trans woman and has a relationship - she stops being a lesbian? And who makes up these rules? Because I think it's pretty misogynist to suggest that you can tell a woman if she is or isn't a lesbian, based on your personal belief that trans women aren't women.

Haven't read the full bunfight but here's Stonewalls submission to the Women & Equalities inquiry that states they want to remove sex based exemptions from the EA, and replace 'gender reassignment' with 'gender identity';

www.stonewall.org.uk/women-and-equalities-select-committee-inquiry-transgender-equality

(Which is interesting, as it means they admit that single sex exemptions are for women only.)

Although gender identity and sexuality should not be conflated, to be absolutist about this is not realistic for young people growing up in these times and experiencing the general confusion and stress of adolescence.

“Don’t be absolutist” is just another way of saying “don’t have boundaries, and if you do, we will erode them.”

Not a single trans supporting/activist individual or group has come out publicly and said “males cannot be lesbians”.

As Gina Carano said, if the abusive people don’t speak for most trans people, they need to find less abusive representation.

It's not a personal belief BilindaB, it's a scientific fact. It's biologically impossible for a male to become female. All the plastic surgery & hormones in the world won't change that. Woman = adult human female. I don't attach any value judgement to that, it's just how it is. Any claim that a male who feels 'feminine' or 'submissive' (as has been admitted on these boards) is actually female is sexist claptrap. Doesn't mean there aren't a lot of dissatisfied people around, but they can't insist that everyone else believes in a falsehood. And as Floral points out, a lesbian in a relationship with a transwoman is in a heterosexual relationship.

@FloralBunting
A woman in a relationship with a transwoman may be a lesbian. I was married to a man for a long time and I'm a lesbian.

But it was a heterosexual relationship.

Absolutely. I thought of that after I posted. Apologies

@BilindaB

I think it's pretty misogynist to suggest that you can tell a woman if she is or isn't a lesbian, based on your personal belief that trans women aren't women.

I'm not telling anyone anything, a lesbian relationship is one that involves two women. It's not 'my personal belief' that transwomen aren't women - they're not, though they can call themselves women if they want. They can call it a 'lesbian relationship' if they want, but it isn't. People don't get to make up their own facts.

'It's not 'my personal belief' that transwomen aren't women'

Yes it is. It's a minority belief. The world is changing whether you like it or not. Seriously, what do you think will be completely normal in 20-30 years? Not the world you want.

@BilindaB

'It's not 'my personal belief' that transwomen aren't women'

Yes it is. It's a minority belief. The world is changing whether you like it or not. Seriously, what do you think will be completely normal in 20-30 years? Not the world you want.

You mean people can change sex now? How did I miss that? When did this scientific breakthrough happen?

It's not a belief, it's true.

Use whatever language you want, say it as many times as you want, but transwomen are not women.

Go on, say it again. It still won't be true.

I think that's for her to decide. If all her other partners weren't trans, then she meets a trans woman and has a relationship - she stops being a lesbian? And who makes up these rules? Because I think it's pretty misogynist to suggest that you can tell a woman if she is or isn't a lesbian, based on your personal belief that trans women aren't women.

I think that's for her to decide. If all her other partners weren't men, then she meets a trans man and has a relationship - she stops being a lesbian? And who makes up these rules? Because I think it's pretty misogynist to suggest that you can tell a woman if she is or isn't a lesbian, based on your personal belief

I think that's for her to decide. If all her other partners weren't male, then she meets a male and has a relationship - she stops being a lesbian? And who makes up these rules? Because I think it's pretty misogynist to suggest that you can tell a woman if she is or isn't a lesbian, based on your personal belief

So it boils down to two possible questions.

If your view is "I think it's pretty misogynist to suggest that you can tell a woman if she is or isn't a lesbian, based on your personal belief" what is the actual point and meaning of the LG & B? Why bother giving names to sexualities if sexualities themselves are undefinable?

Or if on reflection your view is not in fact that, and you think you can, in fact, define sexualities, why does the Stonewall / TRA redefinition of gay and lesbian as mixed sex/same gender attracted stand and the pre-existing definition of gay and lesbian as same sex attracted - the definition that was in use when people actually fought for LGB rights, the definition they fought under because that is what they were - have to go?

Yes it is. It's a minority belief.

what, the belief that humans can't change sex?

yeah, sure

you really are very good value

Oh, I'm just waiting for that PinkNews YouGov survey to be trotted out yet again as 'evidence' that most people believe TWAW. Everytime BlindaB has brought it up on previous threads, she has decided to completely ignore posters linking the survey commissioned by Wings Over Scotland which shows that, when asked in clear, unambiguous terms, whether the general public believe that TWAW or that self ID should mean that transwomen should be allowed to access single sex spaces, the answer is no. And not a minority no, but quite a large majority no.

But this will be ignored, as it is on every other threads, because it doesn't fit the TRA narrative. It's inconvenient.

And so we will continue to be told that the view that human beings cannot magically change sex is a minority view. Despite all evidence to the contrary.

Ticking the 'interested in women' box which covers men who think they're women.

Excuse me while I piss myself laughing.

Everytime BlindaB has brought it up on previous threads, she has decided to completely ignore posters linking the survey commissioned by Wings Over Scotland which shows that, when asked in clear, unambiguous terms, whether the general public believe that TWAW or that self ID should mean that transwomen should be allowed to access single sex spaces, the answer is no. And not a minority no, but quite a large majority no.

The Yougov survey itself shows this, something Bilinda has consistently handwaved away as unimportant.

Yes it is. It's a minority belief. The world is changing whether you like it or not.

If some males are women, please define "woman" without a circular argument.

based on your personal belief that trans women aren't women.

Based on the scientific fact that all transwomen are male , no belief needed.