Do we have it anywhere on record that Stonewall does/does not support people to express their sexuality as exclusively homosexual?

[JustcameoutGC]

The expectation that lesbians accept partners with penises was one of the things that really made me start questioning gender identity politics more closely.

Exclusively homosexual lesbian spaces have disappeared as viewed to be transphobic. Just look on any lesbian dating apps and many of the users are male and be-penised. Some may be fine with this, but all of my lesbian friends are not, and they feel very disenfranchised, but equally they feel unable to speak out. Just look at what happened in Manchester.

I just can't wrap my head around how the prevoiusly stalwart and highly effective champion of gay rights has now essentially outlawed exclusive homosexuality.

Have they made any statements that make this stance clear? Have they actively said they do not support exclusively homosexual spaces?

I guess it’s somewhat reassuring that the argument being made is that FWR is misrepresenting the TRA position rather than the TRA position being valid.

It gives me hope that eventually the genuinely well-meaning TRA supporters who have fallen for #BeKind, and see GC arguments as myths made up by transphobes because they just can’t conceptualise that a movement that claims to be progressive could really be pushing this shit, will see through the spin, stand up for female and sex-oriented LGB people and start to push back against what they are expected to support.

It always comes down on every thread to this odd attitude of 'stop wincing and complaining when I kick you, it makes me look bad!'

And, of course, see that the issue is not, and never has been, trans people, but the regressive, homophobic and misogynist demands which TRAs make in their name. It’s the TRA side that twists GC concerns about TRA assertions and demands into concerns about trans people themselves.

Those fpfw stats are verified. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42221629

@GrimDamnFanjo

Has anyone got the link re. Stonewall lobbying to remove sex as a protected characteristic?

Women's Place UK has this on their website

womansplaceuk.org/references-to-removal-of-single-sex-exemptions/

@Blibbyblobby

And, of course, see that the issue is not, and never has been, trans people, but the regressive, homophobic and misogynist demands which TRAs make in their name. It’s the TRA side that twists GC concerns about TRA assertions and demands into concerns about trans people themselves.

Exactly

There are people out there accusing feminists of murder for not believing TWAW despite the fact no one can point to one single feminist who has actually murdered any trans people.

There are numerous people- including celebrities and MPs who fall over themselves to tell young trans people they are at risk, in danger, despite no one backing this this solid evidence.

We have a narrative from trans supporting charities insisting if kids aren’t given experimental drugs they will die. This is repeated ad nauseam by all and sundry.

We are repeatedly told the murder rate for trans people is shockingly high- just not in the UK which is conveniently not mentioned.

We see people (mainly women) denounced as transphobes and bigots for innocuous statements or attending meetings by women’s groups.

We have women’s groups and LGB supporter labelled hate groups ON THIS VERY SITE without anything approaching credible evidence

And yet well documented (on this thread for starters) arguments that lesbians need to “look at their prejudices” is a myth?

I think the porky pies are a little nearer the people YOU support, Blinda.

I’m on many Facebook groups for lesbian & bi women, recently I’ve noticed a massive increase in trans women in the groups. Particularly pre-op trans women complaining that “cis” (hate that word) women won’t date them…
It’s awful the amount of hate some brave women have got for saying that genitals do play a big part in their attraction to someone, and therefore that is why they aren’t interested in people with male genitalia!

@BilindaB really?

Also my thread which predates the one you linked:

"Cotton Ceiling" evidence thread http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3294339-cotton-ceiling-evidence-thread

There appear to be conflicting interpretations over that GrimDamnFanjo.

Stonewall have lobbied for the following:

A review of the Equality Act 2010 to include ‘gender identity’ rather than ‘gender reassignment’ as a protected characteristic and to remove exemptions, such as access to single-sex spaces

which has been interpreted by some as "lobbying to remove sex as a protected characteristic".

However, there might be some other Stonewall activity where they go further.

www.stonewall.org.uk/women-and-equalities-select-committee-inquiry-transgender-equality

Interesting that Blinda, despite their po-faced sanctimonious "respectful debate" schtick on other threads, is showing their true colours on this one and the one about Manchester Pride.

I guess it’s somewhat reassuring that the argument being made is that FWR is misrepresenting the TRA position rather than the TRA position being valid.

Oh I wouldn't rule out a pivot to that one.

"Owl"'s ridiculous article was debunked by Andrew Gilligan himself on Twitter in an argument with Owl.

which has been interpreted by some as "lobbying to remove sex as a protected characteristic".

That's just confusion about "protected characteristics" versus the "exceptions", I believe.

They've never campaigned for sex not being a protected characteristic, as far as I know. They want sex discrimination to still be outlawed.

But they've lobbied to have the exceptions to that removed - the exceptions that permit sex discrimination for privacy/safety or other clear purposes etc.

So they want the sex discrimination laws there without exemption, which would mean no female-only spaces or organisations are possible, as excluding males would be impermissible sex discrimination.

I believe the Independent had to print a correction and apology to FPFW. Seems you're behind the times, Bilinda.

'Sexual orientation (who you are attracted to) is completely unrelated to gender identity (who you are). You can be trans and gay, trans and straight, trans and bi, asexual, or anything else – just as a cis person can be. Simple.
So, could a lesbian have a trans woman as a lesbian partner, or a gay man be with a trans man?

Of course. If they fancy each other. First and foremost, we need to recognise that trans women are women, and trans men are men. After that it becomes a matter of who you are attracted to.'

(Emphasis mine).

This is Stonewall saying FIRST AND FOREMOST gender matters. After that ... biological sex is irrelevant, presumably.

This is the article I was thinking of @BilindaB and @suggestionsplease1.

lesbianandgaynews.com/2021/02/lesbian-women-talk-about-meeting-transbians-on-women-only-dating-sites/

Do you think it was right for Lisa Masoud to be kicked off a dating site for making her homosexuality very clear on her profile?

She had been swiping right, but was still being approached by straight couples and people with penises.

Do you believe she has the right to declare her same sex sexual orientation, and do you believe that Stonewall represents her?

Stonewall said this which seems fairly unambiguous:

In addition, Stonewall will advocate for the removal of all instances of permitted discrimination of trans people from the Act, as well as for updates to the explanatory notes and statutory codes of practice accordingly. Stonewall will lobby political parties in England, Scotland and Wales to include full equality for trans people, and the reform of the Equality Act, as part of their political commitments.

From here: www.stonewall.org.uk/system/files/a_vision_for_change.pdf (triggers download) p33 under "Equality Act"

*Again, the initial statement made it sound as this was official trans policy, It's not, which is why I feel obliged to post, and I ask you for any evidence that it's more than a very small minority of trans women with penises saying 'you must find my penis attractive, lesbians.'

Again, any evidence it's more than a tiny minority. Without misrepresenting what people like Riley Dennis has said*.

Its surely not about how many trans women are accusing lesbians of refusing penis, but the fact that lesbians are losing lesbian only spaces which is something that should concern Stonewall but of course it doesnt.

Without misrepresenting what people like Riley Dennis has said*.

There's really no way you can "misrepresent" the words of Dennis to make it worse than what Dennis actually said.

Here's a young gay man responding to some prime cotton ceiling material:

twitter.com/EuanRL/status/1428261949498871809?s=20

@Artichokeleaves

It really doesn't matter how many times you try the gaslighting that 1) it never happens

2. when faced with evidence, ok it happens but only a tiny tiny minority that doesn't count

3. when faced with a lot of evidence: you're fear mongering which raises antipathy towards TW

which really is position 4 - shutupshutupshutupshutupdontlookatthat

Which proves that yes, you know damn well this is real, you are very uncomfortable with admitting it, and you really, really don't want it brought out into plain sight and acknowledged because it is openly homophobic and involves off the charts inappropriate sexual entitlement.

No. As a female homosexual I will absolutely not stop talking about or raising awareness of it so that those you can support can fix this in law and beyond the ability of other homosexuals to defend themselves against. If you had any moral courage at all or real faith in your position you would be worried about this, investigating it and approaching those raising it (having bloody funded conferences for petes sake about how to make lesbian women give in to sex with heterosexual males) to be very clear this is ok and does not happen in the name of trans people.

Instead, all your energy goes on frantically trying to shut up the women who are on the receiving end of it. You're committing time and energy here today, defending your beliefs in homophobia and the sexual rights of males over females.

My first post said the vast majority of trans women don't think this. Which means there is a tiny minority that do. There is no inconsistency. Are you just wasting my time, or can't you read?

The thread is predicated on the lie that this is some mainstream trans view, it is not. As the other poster said, a common trick pulled here, like Linehan, is find some lone weirdo saying something bad, or making threats, and make it as if they are the epitome of all trans people. It's just the same as what Islamophobes like Tommy Robinson do with Muslims. Shameful, but it's clear that some people think disingenuousness is fine if the ends justify the means.

And it stinks, it smears the whole community. In this case a community already under attack. Beyond shameful.

BlindaB - Stonewall’s own website states that transwomen can be lesbians!!!!

If it's only a tiny fringe minority saying this, and the vast majority in the trans community (I'm including trans activists here) view it in horror, how come there isn't a great outcry from the mainstream trans community criticising this tiny fringe who are doing so much damage?

Bilinda, you still haven't answered my questions. Should gay women be allowed to define themselves as exclusively same sex attracted, should they be allowed to state this openly on places like dating sites, should they be allowed to create spaces, physical and on line that cater exclusively to same sex attracted women, and should Stonewall Champion their right to do so?