Do we have it anywhere on record that Stonewall does/does not support people to express their sexuality as exclusively homosexual?

[JustcameoutGC]

The expectation that lesbians accept partners with penises was one of the things that really made me start questioning gender identity politics more closely.

Exclusively homosexual lesbian spaces have disappeared as viewed to be transphobic. Just look on any lesbian dating apps and many of the users are male and be-penised. Some may be fine with this, but all of my lesbian friends are not, and they feel very disenfranchised, but equally they feel unable to speak out. Just look at what happened in Manchester.

I just can't wrap my head around how the prevoiusly stalwart and highly effective champion of gay rights has now essentially outlawed exclusive homosexuality.

Have they made any statements that make this stance clear? Have they actively said they do not support exclusively homosexual spaces?

Who expects this? Not the vast majority of trans people. It's a bullshit myth put around by transphobes.

Granted trans activists tried hard to keep this quiet but then the #superstraight phenomenom happened and trans activists lost their minds at men and women saying that they would not have sex with people having the "right gender but wrong sex":

oursuperstories.com/wall-of-coercion/

Have a read. It's astonishing. But trans activists really messed up over #superstraight because normally they tend to go after women but this time they went after men and a lot of men really didn't like it one bit.

Blinda I’d imagine it would be stopped by the same methods they usually get their way.

Cancelling, slurs, condemnation from twats like OJ tweeting to his friends and moaning in the Graun etc.

If you’re unaware have a read around these boards for info about anyone who has suggested women need single sex spaces at any point.

I am interested in what you think @BilindaB,

Do you think it is legitimate for an individual to define themselves as exclusively same sex attracted?

Should Stonewall be advocating for their rights?

Would you support spaces for exclusively same sex attracted people?

Where's that tiktok of that crying young lesbian who said she'd been 'educated' into accepting female penises?

Why do people persist in making blatantly untrue statements? Next you'll be telling us that half of all transwomen in prison aren't sex offenders @BilindaB

@HeddaAga

Oh there are plenty of high profile trans activists who say this BilindaB. Take a trip down Riley J Dennis's YouTube posts:

lesbian-rights-nz.org/shame-receipts/riley-j-dennis-being-a-homophobe/

Or maybe Google Cotton Ceiling? You're in for a wild ride

medium.com/@mirandayardley/girl-dick-the-cotton-ceiling-and-the-cultural-war-on-lesbians-and-women-c323b4789368

You're misrepresenting Riley J Dennis' position, and you're not the first.

Yes I know about the 'cotton ceiling' - load of old wank.

Again, the initial statement made it sound as this was official trans policy, It's not, which is why I feel obliged to post, and I ask you for any evidence that it's more than a very small minority of trans women with penises saying 'you must find my penis attractive, lesbians.'

Again, any evidence it's more than a tiny minority. Without misrepresenting what people like Riley Dennis has said.

''I’m not going to tell you that you have to be attracted to this fat person, or that trans person, or that disabled person. But the more you work at unlearning your own prejudices, the more you’ll be able to see people from these groups as people rather than tired stereotypes.''
—Riley Dennis

@Clymene

Where's that tiktok of that crying young lesbian who said she'd been 'educated' into accepting female penises?

Why do people persist in making blatantly untrue statements? Next you'll be telling us that half of all transwomen in prison aren't sex offenders @BilindaB

Stop spreading transphobic bollocks.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/41-per-cent-trans-transgender-trans-women-prisoners-sex-offenders-false-study-statistic-this-is-why-a8072431.html

'In the report by the Ministry of Justice, there is also no information at all on what type of offences the identified trans prisoners are doing time for. Even the charity Fair Play for Women states: “There is no official information published on the type of offences committed by (transgender women) inmates”.

Yet out of these mystical 113 trans women in prison, they conclude that 46/113 (or 41 per cent) are sex offenders based on the units they are placed in. They make the blatant judgement that all those housed in eight prisons in the UK (Ashfield, Bure, Isle of Wight, Littlehey, Rye Hill, Stafford, Usk and Whatton) are sex offenders.

In fact, a quick search on the Ministry of Justice website shows that only five of the eight prisons house only sex offenders, and most are Category C prisons housing vulnerable prisoners. As an example, one of the prisons that the researcher claims hosts only sex offenders, the Isle of Wight Prison, has also vulnerable prisoners and ordinary prisoners in mixed units since 2010 according to the Ministry of Justice.''

Stonewall employ Morgan Page who ran the Cotton Ceiling workshops in Toronto in 2012.

4thwavenow.com/2019/01/26/my-trans-youth-group-experience-with-morgan-page/

The Stonewall Trans Training workshops run by my employer this year were led by Morgan Page. I was too afraid for my career to ask them about their previous Cotton Ceiling workshops. But if Stonewall employ the person who ran the Cotton Ceiling workshops to run diversity training, this tells you all you need to know.

What does “unlearn your own prejudices” actually mean when coupled with the statement “see people from these groups as people”?

I totally exclude women from my sex life as I’m hetero.

I also see women as people and have no prejudice towards other women.

I exclude men under 40 or over 55 as well. Again, they’re still people in my eyes.

Everyone excludes someone when it comes to sex and relationships. It’s not invalidating them.

So saying you need to unlearn a prejudice and linking that with the idea that your prejudice = dehumanising people puts the idea out there that not wanting to sleep with someone means you are prejudiced and don’t see them as valid. This simply isn’t true now, is it?

@BlindaB

Facts are not ‘transphobic bollocks’.

The stats that half of transwomen prisoners are sex offenders can be seen here at para 13 of this court judgement. www.crimeandjustice.org.uk/sites/crimeandjustice.org.uk/files/FDJ%20v%20SSJ%20judgment%20approved%20as%20handed%20down%20on%2002.07.21%20%28002%29.pdf

www.crimeandjustice.org.uk/sites/crimeandjustice.org.uk/files/FDJ%20v%20SSJ%20judgment%20approved%20as%20handed%20down%20on%2002.07.21%20%28002%29.pdf

Does that give you any cause for concern?

Again, any evidence it's more than a tiny minority. Without misrepresenting what people like Riley Dennis has said.

''I’m not going to tell you that you have to be attracted to this fat person, or that trans person, or that disabled person. But the more you work at unlearning your own prejudices, the more you’ll be able to see people from these groups as people rather than tired stereotypes.''
—Riley Dennis

You think that helps your position?

It’s hardly acceptance that many people’s sexuality is naturally sex- not gender- oriented is it?

It’s explicitly saying that a person whose sexuality is not gender-oriented is simply prejudiced.

Saying “you don’t have to sleep with someone if you don’t want to but the reason you don’t want to is not just your natural sexuality but shameful and wrong” is not accepting and respecting same sex attraction.

'I’m not going to tell you that you have to be attracted to this fat person, or that trans person, or that disabled person.

You would have to be hard of thinking to think that this sentence supports anything but an attempt to coerce someone to rethink their sexual orientation. For the purpose of sex, one of these things are not like the others. It is offensive to be told I have a ‘prejudice’ that prevents me from choosing a trans partner who is the opposite sex I am attracted to and that I need to be re educated about it.

Yes, agree with Blinda, this is yet another myth doing the rounds and designed to alienate and discredit trans people.

This board in particular goes out of its way to misrepresent the vast majority of trans people by maintaining an overt focus on a minority viewpoint and then attempting to extrapolate from this that is some sort of official position of a broader community. It's illogical and laughable, but there you have it. The vast majority of trans people are the same as the vast majority of all people and know that nobody should be expected to have sex with any individual they do not want to.

I'm on the dating apps for gay women and I see all sorts of people, straight men, couples, straight women who are not interested in anything at all with other women but have ticked the 'interested in women' box to see if people they know are on there, trans women, gay women etc etc. The trans profiles are fully up front about this as they don't want to waste their time on anyone that wouldn't consider themselves as a potential partner.

Guess what? I am able to swipe past anyone I'm not personally interested in. Unbelievable that others aren't apparently capable of doing likewise.

@suggestionsplease1

Yes, agree with Blinda, this is yet another myth doing the rounds and designed to alienate and discredit trans people.

This board in particular goes out of its way to misrepresent the vast majority of trans people by maintaining an overt focus on a minority viewpoint and then attempting to extrapolate from this that is some sort of official position of a broader community. It's illogical and laughable, but there you have it. The vast majority of trans people are the same as the vast majority of all people and know that nobody should be expected to have sex with any individual they do not want to.

I'm on the dating apps for gay women and I see all sorts of people, straight men, couples, straight women who are not interested in anything at all with other women but have ticked the 'interested in women' box to see if people they know are on there, trans women, gay women etc etc. The trans profiles are fully up front about this as they don't want to waste their time on anyone that wouldn't consider themselves as a potential partner.

Guess what? I am able to swipe past anyone I'm not personally interested in. Unbelievable that others aren't apparently capable of doing likewise.

Sorry, you're n dating apps for gay women which are full of people who aren't gay women?

Doesn't that rather prove the point?

This board in particular goes out of its way to misrepresent the vast majority of trans people by maintaining an overt focus on a minority viewpoint and then attempting to extrapolate from this that is some sort of official position of a broader community.

I think you will find that actually, many on this board respond to the fact that the lobby group that supposedly supports lesbians, has not once stated that the attacks from some trans people and their allies are unacceptable. Not once!

In fact, the one time Stonewall came out and stated that violence and dehumanising of people disagreeing with the ideology was not acceptable, they got so much flack they did not repeat it.

So, again. Where are all these public voices that have come out and said ‘these actions are not acceptable’? If it is a minority, there should be no issue in the majority supporting those victims of that behaviour.

If ‘cotton ceiling’ is a ‘minority viewpoint’, why does Stonewall employ the very person who ran the Cotton Ceiling workshop?

As Graham Linehan has said - if these people are outliers, they're very central outliers.

@suggestionsplease1 @BilindaB

You are both conflating "we won't force you to sleep with someone you don't fancy" with "we acknowledge and accept your sexuality".

Stonewall is an LBTQIA+ organisation. The first three characters are sexualities. So Stonewall clearly accepts that different sexualities do exist and are valid, ie that sexualities are not just prejudice.

The question then is not whether sexuality in itself is valid for Stoewall - because it clearly is - but which sexualities Stonewall accepts as valid.

LGB were (and in popular consciousness still are) labels for different types of sex-oriented sexuality. Stonewall now defines them as gender-oriented.

So the simple question is, does Stonewall, or any TRA movement, respect sex-oriented sexualities, or does it deny these exist and label those whose sexualities are sex-oriented rather than gender-oriented as simply prejudiced?

(Sexualities of course include heterosexuality, but as that was never Stonewall's remit I'm not bringing it in to this specific conversation.)

It's exactly the same MO genderism has used against female people.

Instead of doing the honest thing and picking a new name for a gender-oriented social group, it takes the name of an existing group, usurps its spaces and rights, and leaves the pre-existing group of people - who still exist, because a name is just a label for a group of people who share something, it does not in any way call that group into existence - undefined.

It's a vile act of power over minority and/or underprivileged groups.

It's illogical and laughable, but there you have it. The vast majority of trans people are the same as the vast majority of all people and know that nobody should be expected to have sex with any individual they do not want to.

It is so laughable that that majority won’t stand up to support the victims of homophobic actions and denounce those attacking lesbian and gay people? Or it’s laughable that it is not the majority view and should therefore be dismissed and ignored?

Is that what you meant?

This Q&A is very illuminating

www.stonewall.org.uk/truth-about-trans#trans-women-refuges

The attached screen shot from the Q&A shows that no, Stonewall does not support exclusive same sex attraction.

I said 'most' I know there are small minority of trans women who say stuff like this and I disagree with them totally, as do most other trans women. Twitters a big place, you can find that small minority there. Got any evidence that it's more than a handful?

So is it a bullshit myth put about by transphobes or not

You have zero consistency….might even be in the negative numbers

It really doesn't matter how many times you try the gaslighting that 1) it never happens

2. when faced with evidence, ok it happens but only a tiny tiny minority that doesn't count

3. when faced with a lot of evidence: you're fear mongering which raises antipathy towards TW

which really is position 4 - shutupshutupshutupshutupdontlookatthat

Which proves that yes, you know damn well this is real, you are very uncomfortable with admitting it, and you really, really don't want it brought out into plain sight and acknowledged because it is openly homophobic and involves off the charts inappropriate sexual entitlement.

No. As a female homosexual I will absolutely not stop talking about or raising awareness of it so that those you can support can fix this in law and beyond the ability of other homosexuals to defend themselves against. If you had any moral courage at all or real faith in your position you would be worried about this, investigating it and approaching those raising it (having bloody funded conferences for petes sake about how to make lesbian women give in to sex with heterosexual males) to be very clear this is ok and does not happen in the name of trans people.

Instead, all your energy goes on frantically trying to shut up the women who are on the receiving end of it. You're committing time and energy here today, defending your beliefs in homophobia and the sexual rights of males over females.

Has anyone got the link re. Stonewall lobbying to remove sex as a protected characteristic?

Yes, agree with Blinda, this is yet another myth doing the rounds and designed to alienate and discredit trans people

It can’t be a myth if its actually happened

What is with all this changing the meaning of words…its like staycation all over again