GC women thrown out of Edinburgh pub

[cariadlet]

Sorry if there's already a thread on this. I've been following it on twitter all day but didn't spot anything on Mumsnet.

The Edinburgh News has got a report about it.
www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/inquiry-launched-into-row-over-transphobia-in-edinburgh-pub-3355594

The reporter quotes a lot of the TRA's tweets which they would probably love but I think the reporter's just given them enough rope to hang themselves.

I'm sure the average reader who hasn't followed the trans debate won't be impressed by someone who calls themselves an "AGP porn addict male" in their twitter bio.

I read the article and honestly they’d booked two tables and in course of 2.5hrs had finished eating and were just talking and drinking. Staff have every right to ask you to give up your table a reasonable amount of time after finishing eating as there are usually other people who have bookings after you waiting to be seated. I have done this myself when I worked as a maitre D. The staff even nicely gave them a half hour warning to finish up. It was only after the slightly drunk group of women started to object to be asking to finish up and cause trouble that the insults started flying and the police called.

So in this case, I don’t think discrimination due to belief occurred.

I see the self-confessed “A_P porn addict male” has tempered his account for the paper. I seem to remember him calling them cunts on his Twitter post.

By all accounts all was fine and dandy until Marian Millar joined them, who the porn addict recognised.

Unsafe, my arse

I don’t think anyone else has a booking at 10.30pm and the bartender himself says he was using the 2 hour per booking rule as an excuse to get them out. The bartenders comments about terfs and society despising such people are out of order.

But I also think if you start putting stickers up in the loos and leaving leaflets around the place (no matter what the subject is) you run the risk of being asked to leave. It seems to have been the stickering which tipped the staff over the edge.

@PlanDeRaccordement

I read the article and honestly they’d booked two tables and in course of 2.5hrs had finished eating and were just talking and drinking. Staff have every right to ask you to give up your table a reasonable amount of time after finishing eating as there are usually other people who have bookings after you waiting to be seated. I have done this myself when I worked as a maitre D. The staff even nicely gave them a half hour warning to finish up. It was only after the slightly drunk group of women started to object to be asking to finish up and cause trouble that the insults started flying and the police called.

So in this case, I don’t think discrimination due to belief occurred.

According to the women there, there wasn't a time limit on their booking & there was no one waiting for a table.

I think the manager's comments quite clearly demonstrate just who was being bigoted and discriminatory - and it wasn't the customers.

Any terfs see this, I tried to be civil with you and you failed. You're the worst customers ever. You dinnae belong in pubs... or society... you made my staff and other customers uncomfortable. I hope you understand just how much normal society despises you

Going by the tweets from the person who chucked them out (there are lot on twitter that were much too abusive and sweary for the paper to include), I think that they were chucked out because someone working in the bar recognised Marion Millar (who wasn't wearing anything with a slogan) and they just wanted to throw the women out because they didn't agree with the women's gender critical views.

@HouseOfGoldandBones
According to the manger of the pub there was a 2hr per booking rule. I think the women were arguing disingenuously because when you book a table, there is never an expiration time given. It’s always separately mentioned.

They weren’t asked to leave the pub until after things got heated. Initially, they were only asked to surrender their tables. They could have moved to the bar/pub area and continued.

@PlanDeRaccordement

They weren’t asked to leave the pub until after things got heated. Initially, they were only asked to surrender their tables. They could have moved to the bar/pub area and continued.

It sounds like you were there? Great that you're able to share all the inside detail with us

mebulous entity
''mother of fucking god you'll never believe who i just had to kick out my bar
literally terfs. i had to call the police because they were making my staff and other customers feel threatened''

Lt. Aldo 'Chel' Raine
''You can call the police on terfs because they aren't people. It's ethical.''

twitter.com/FinalAntiFaXIV/status/1429207273805688835

If the pub was being bigoted, they would have refused service right away. As I have had happen to me due to my race. You go in and suddenly, every table is reserved or your booking lost and you leave within 5mins of arriving.
The manager said he recognised them the second they came in. They were still served and had a more than average length of 2.5hrs of eating and drinking. It was only after they were nicely asked to surrender their tables and the women refusing rudely that things got out of hand. Plus leaving stickers and leaflets in a business without permission is enough to get you asked to leave no matter what cause you are supporting.

It's being discussed in depth on this thread (towards the end) - www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4261333-Are-you-put-off-booking-a-holiday-in-Scotland-by-the-Marion-Miller-case-and-the-Scottish-police-carping-about-stickers

One of the links given gives a fairly full explanation and background of the incident.

www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/inquiry-launched-into-row-over-transphobia-in-edinburgh-pub-3355594

Glinner's put everything together.

grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/women-in-possession-of-opinions-will

The women weren't asked to leave until well after two hours had passed. (Arrived 7pm and police called 10.30 by the looks of the tweets). The two hours is, by the AGPs own admission, being used as the excuse.

He also apparently called 999, which is a horrendous waste of resources.

One woman who was there said she managed to confirm there was no one waiting for the tables (kitchens usually close before 10 anyway) and the women were continuing to buy drinks.

I've seen no proof that this group was responsible for the stickers, just the assumption that the two are linked. In fact I've seen no proof the picture of the flyers was taken in the pub, they could easily have been picked up on the street as I've seen them left at bus stops.

Tbh in August in Edinburgh it's not unusual for flyers for various shows to be left everywhere, including in toilets so if I'd seen them I probably would have ignored them too.

If the pub was being bigoted, they would have refused service right away.

Why not read about what actually happened instead of just making assumptions?
Marion Millar joined the group later, and they recognised her.

Ah, just realised that Edinburgh Evening News link was given in the OP! There's another report by Edinburgh Live which is so non specific that commentators are a bit baffled as to what it was all about.

@PlanDeRaccordement

They weren’t asked to leave the pub until after things got heated. Initially, they were only asked to surrender their tables. They could have moved to the bar/pub area and continued.

Doctors is all one big bar area, not a separate bar and restaurant. Every pub I've ever worked in has closed their kitchens by 9, or 10 at the absolute latest. Even if it had been a restaurant they wouldn't have had any more covers that evening.

@PlanDeRaccordement

If the pub was being bigoted, they would have refused service right away. As I have had happen to me due to my race. You go in and suddenly, every table is reserved or your booking lost and you leave within 5mins of arriving. The manager said he recognised them the second they came in. They were still served and had a more than average length of 2.5hrs of eating and drinking. It was only after they were nicely asked to surrender their tables and the women refusing rudely that things got out of hand. Plus leaving stickers and leaflets in a business without permission is enough to get you asked to leave no matter what cause you are supporting.

Recognised them? Recognised them how? As what? Middle aged women?

The Scotsman has it too.
www.scotsman.com/news/politics/inquiry-launched-into-row-over-transphobia-in-edinburgh-pub-3355594

If the pub was being bigoted, they would have refused service right away.

I trust you will soon be providing solid evidence to prove that this is how bigotry always manifests (as opposed to say, being served at the last possible moment, or receiving poor service in comparison to others)?

That said, Marion Millar's account is more or less in line with your assertion that bigots will try and find a way to get their victims out more or less immediately, so you could be spot on.

@PlanDeRaccordement

I read the article and honestly they’d booked two tables and in course of 2.5hrs had finished eating and were just talking and drinking. Staff have every right to ask you to give up your table a reasonable amount of time after finishing eating as there are usually other people who have bookings after you waiting to be seated. I have done this myself when I worked as a maitre D. The staff even nicely gave them a half hour warning to finish up. It was only after the slightly drunk group of women started to object to be asking to finish up and cause trouble that the insults started flying and the police called.

So in this case, I don’t think discrimination due to belief occurred.

I see you’ve read one side of the story. Even the barman/woman who told them to leave has said they made up the 2 hour time limit to get rid of them because he/she didn’t like ‘terfs’ in the pub.

@CovidCorvid

I don’t think anyone else has a booking at 10.30pm and the bartender himself says he was using the 2 hour per booking rule as an excuse to get them out. The bartenders comments about terfs and society despising such people are out of order.

But I also think if you start putting stickers up in the loos and leaving leaflets around the place (no matter what the subject is) you run the risk of being asked to leave. It seems to have been the stickering which tipped the staff over the edge.

No stickers were used, but yes, I can see that leaving a leaflet that states sex is immutable can be seen to be hateful enough to get someone evicted.

Anyone not familiar with Edinburgh, Doctors Pub is opposite the University of Edinburgh's main 'centre' - Bristo Square - where the Student Union, University shop etc are. The UOE is one of the most 'captured' institutions going.

It's amusing to see comments from someone saying they 'could have just moved to the bar/pub area' from someone who has clearly never set foot in the place.

Glad to see several papers are covering this, and are giving both sides room to speak. I think the commentary made by the staff member is admirably clear and should be given as much publicity as possible.