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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

GC women thrown out of Edinburgh pub

999 replies

cariadlet · 22/08/2021 20:02

Sorry if there's already a thread on this. I've been following it on twitter all day but didn't spot anything on Mumsnet.

The Edinburgh News has got a report about it.
www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/inquiry-launched-into-row-over-transphobia-in-edinburgh-pub-3355594

The reporter quotes a lot of the TRA's tweets which they would probably love but I think the reporter's just given them enough rope to hang themselves.

I'm sure the average reader who hasn't followed the trans debate won't be impressed by someone who calls themselves an "AGP porn addict male" in their twitter bio.

OP posts:
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CovidCorvid · 22/08/2021 20:47

Marian miller has been in the main stream news for her court case including photos of her, so perfectly possible that the barman recognised her.

CovidCorvid · 22/08/2021 20:48

No stickers were used, but yes, I can see that leaving a leaflet that states sex is immutable can be seen to be hateful enough to get someone evicted

That is not what I said at all.

Soontobe60 · 22/08/2021 20:53

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]@HouseOfGoldandBones
According to the manger of the pub there was a 2hr per booking rule. I think the women were arguing disingenuously because when you book a table, there is never an expiration time given. It’s always separately mentioned.[/quote]
The manager decided to make up the 2 hour rule to get them out, because he had no other reason for them to leave.

GC women thrown out of Edinburgh pub
yourhairiswinterfire · 22/08/2021 20:57

The barman or whatever the hell he calls himself is sure acting like a bigot on Twitter, it's not hard to believe he takes his ''whole self to work''.

Look at how he's carrying on on social media. Referring to women as cunts. Asked what the group did that was threatening, he said 'they were cunts'. He said he throws out 'hate groups' like nazis and 'terfs'. He says 'terfs' have no place in society and 'everyone despises them'.

So whether they class the pub incident as discrimination or not, this individual is harassing and slurring women online for holding legally protected beliefs, he's displaying his utter hatred for a protected group, and is dragging his place of work into it.

It's fucked up when you think of some of the things women have been sacked for, for posting online. I've never seen a GC feminist say ''trans people don't belong in society'', ''all trans people are cunts'', ''everyone despises trans people''. That would be abhorrent, and so is this person's attitude.

I wouldn't want this person associated with my business.

cariadlet · 22/08/2021 20:58

Identical reports by the same journalist in both the Edinburgh News and the Scotsman. I wonder if she's managed to get the story in any other newspapers.

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Soontobe60 · 22/08/2021 21:00

@CovidCorvid

No stickers were used, but yes, I can see that leaving a leaflet that states sex is immutable can be seen to be hateful enough to get someone evicted

That is not what I said at all.

But I also think if you start putting stickers up in the loos

Yes you did.

WouldBeGood · 22/08/2021 21:02

I never thought I’d be scared to go to the pub in Scotland. Been going for 35 years

MondayYogurt · 22/08/2021 21:02

This reply has been deleted

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cariadlet · 22/08/2021 21:14

My phone won't let me post a screenshot but there's a great review of the Doctors bar on TripAdvisor.

OP posts:
littlbrowndog · 22/08/2021 21:16

Here

GC women thrown out of Edinburgh pub
WouldBeGood · 22/08/2021 21:19

Beautifully expressed

PermanentTemporary · 22/08/2021 21:22

'Rife' @MondayYogurt? That strikes unpleasantly. Why shouldn't transwomen have jobs at pubs?

CharlieParley · 22/08/2021 21:24

@PlanDeRaccordement

I read the article and honestly they’d booked two tables and in course of 2.5hrs had finished eating and were just talking and drinking. Staff have every right to ask you to give up your table a reasonable amount of time after finishing eating as there are usually other people who have bookings after you waiting to be seated. I have done this myself when I worked as a maitre D. The staff even nicely gave them a half hour warning to finish up. It was only after the slightly drunk group of women started to object to be asking to finish up and cause trouble that the insults started flying and the police called.

So in this case, I don’t think discrimination due to belief occurred.

Utter nonsense.

This was a group of women who had booked two tables to have dinner after going to an Edinburgh Fringe show.

Nothing happened until Marion Millar popped in to say hi.

The bar manager immediately asked Marion to leave (and only Marion at this point). Which she did within 5 minutes.

Shortly afterwards the bar manager decided to call the police to evict the other women.

No insults were flying and no trouble caused. Which is why other guests were nonplussed when the police turned up.

Who did inform the women that the manager wanted them to leave. When they protested that they hadn't done anything wrong, the police told them that the manager had the right to ask them to leave. So they left.

As for leaflets in the toilets, during the Edinburgh Fringe the whole centre of town is drowning in leaflets, flyers, posters, stickers. You can't walk five yards without someone thrusting a leaflet, a flyer, a sticker, even badges at you.

There are usually so many on every horizontal surface, that you stop taking any notice. Not even the flyers offering free shows or free drinks if you go to a particular show get much attention.

You have to be an outrage merchant to manage a pub in one of the busiest areas of town to complain about leaflets during the Fringe. And the manager was kind enough to broadcast to the world just what motivated the eviction.

Not behaviour. Opinions.

Women having opinions certain men don't like.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

Anotheruser02 · 22/08/2021 21:24

I took it as rife with hatred towards women from the GC position.

WouldBeGood · 22/08/2021 21:24

I don’t mind who works in pubs, who goes to pubs, or what their views are.

WouldBeGood · 22/08/2021 21:28

As long as they are not picking on people for their views/appearance/etc

WeAreTheWomen · 22/08/2021 21:28

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MondayYogurt · 22/08/2021 21:28

@PermanentTemporary

'Rife' *@MondayYogurt*? That strikes unpleasantly. Why shouldn't transwomen have jobs at pubs?
lmao As opposed to rare. Let's use it in a sentence. "Easily clocked transwomen are not rife on deep sea trawlers but they should definitely have no barriers to accessing those job opportunities."
ArabellaScott · 22/08/2021 21:28

I agree that the bar manager has plenty of interesting views and insights on the situation and is keen to share. I recommend having a look at their Twitter. (NSFW, Content warning, lots of sexual content)

twitter.com/mebisdead

KimikosNightmare · 22/08/2021 21:31

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]@HouseOfGoldandBones
According to the manger of the pub there was a 2hr per booking rule. I think the women were arguing disingenuously because when you book a table, there is never an expiration time given. It’s always separately mentioned.[/quote]
That's nonsense. If any venue is using a limited time system it is always, in my experience, stated in the booking process.

I do however think it was extremely silly of them to deposit leaflets and stickers. Bars never allow that without prior agreement. You might see Fringe Festival flyers but a bar's not going to risk offending customers who disagree with whatever is being promoted.

WouldBeGood · 22/08/2021 21:31

Goodness. That’s all beyond me. Thankfully.

Waitwhat23 · 22/08/2021 21:32

@charlieparley I've taken to keeping my hands in my pockets when walking down the High Street during the Festival to stop flyers being thrust into my hands!

An additional point is that, in addition to the masses of flyers/posters/stickers advertising Fringe shows, there are always plenty of other flyers too - political parties, yoga retreats, spiritual events etc etc and they are always being placed in public buildings, all around Edinburgh. My last job was well out of the Centre and we still had loads of flyers and things left on noticeboards, in the toilets etc. Places I have worked which had a blanket 'no flyers' rule - I just took the flyers and put them in the bin. I didn't chase people down to scream abuse at them, even if I disagreed with what they were distributing!

CovidCorvid · 22/08/2021 21:44

@soontobe60. Quoting half my sentence will of course make it look different. Nice touch.

Of course I don’t think putting gender critical leaflets/stickers in the loos is “hateful” enough to get them evicted. At no point did I say it was “hateful”. You’re twisting what I said.

All I said was it gives staff an excuse no matter what the subject is to ask people to leave. I’m not saying I agree with that at all. Just that it’s given (if they did this) the bar staff a “reason” for asking them to leave which allows them to wriggle away from what is the real reason. It’s a shame they have that excuse to hang their decision on…..of course it’s possible there were no leaflets/stickers and the bar staff have entirely made that up. I don’t know.

ScreamingMeMe · 22/08/2021 21:58

[quote ArabellaScott]I agree that the bar manager has plenty of interesting views and insights on the situation and is keen to share. I recommend having a look at their Twitter. (NSFW, Content warning, lots of sexual content)

twitter.com/mebisdead[/quote]
In among all the boob talk and photos, they are clearly loving the attention from this. They keep tagging in CursedE and Katy Montgomerie. Looks a bit desperate.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 22/08/2021 22:01

extract from twitter

A perspective of the Edinburgh pub/Marion Millar fiasco from 2 experienced bar workers.

Firstly, the person putting themselves forward as the bar's manager has not been particularly specific about what it was that they were doing that was threatening.

(Not sharing screenshots cos I don't want to add oxygen to them, for their benefit: they seem to be a hyper-online person & that is part of the issue of what has happened - more on that in a bit.)

But anyway, "threatening" behaviour & making other guests feel uncomfortable are justifiable reasons to eject ppl.

But the only single action cited was "they left leaflets in the toilet." That's not ok, but in our experience, not something a smart bar manager would eject over.

Rather, we would bring them back to the group & tell them they can't leave it anywhere on the premises; not even anything to do with the content. We don't have other brands, campaigns or anything on display. It clutters the place up & ruins the atmo when ppl are wanting to relax.

This happens all the time, btw. Political leaflets, adverts for new rivals bars, charities, business cards. Some places might have a community board, or allow a local event poster on a toilet door. The bars & pubs I worked in, however, were no soliciting at all kind of places.

The bar manager doesn't specify any other action the group took that would be stepping over a line, however.

If they had been approaching other guests & handing out the leaflets, that would have been immediate grounds ejection.

As would have abusive or aggressive behaviour with the other guests, or (happened to me once) using the busy bar as an opportunity to give what is undoubtedly to their mind a rousing speech, & not shutting up when asked.

Obvious McObvious, but you need good reasons to eject guests.

The guests are there to spend money, you want them there.

Ejecting risks sacrificing the bill. It causes a ruckus, ruining the atmosphere. It upsets other guests, who will leave if they feel unsafe.

If there are a group of guests we don't like, who we detest, we still have to serve them. And you know what, it's not difficult to get over.

Guests won't be there long; a matter of minutes or hours, & then you will probably never see them again.

Police are another level of escalation you really don't want.

Guests are far more put off by a police presence than being solicited for a political cause. They'll leave for a quieter, safer bar. No other guest is going to walk through the door while the fuzz are there either.

Point being: you only eject when you have no choice than to immediately get your undesirable guests out & the short-term stress is worth it, which it barely ever is. The vast majority of the time, we wait out dickhead guests. Simple requests to them to cool it are enough.

Obvious examples where we eject: underage drinkers, people who get violent, people who are physically sick in the communal area, people who are clearly too drunk, people who are clearly high, people who steal others' drinks.

There's another thing about this that really bothers us too.

If I were at head office at@DoctorsBaror@belhaven_pubs, & I found out a worker at one of the units we were responsible for was boasting about ejecting a guest publicly on social media, I would shit.

Seriously. I would lose my fucking head. No anonymity, no caution, just roping our business & workers right into a highly contentious political debate, no qualms about how this will look to outsiders, no qualms about sparking reprisals? And then acting constantly aggressive?

Cannot emphasise this enough. Ejections need to be justified, quick, but most importantly discreet. They should be damage controlled as much as possible to stop ppl thinking you bar is anything other than a good place to have a nice time. You need guests cos they bring money.

It already sounded a shitshow with the police involved. Everyone in the pub would know what was going on, so that's between 30-300 (depending on the size) who have that impression of your bar now.

Tweeting it has upped that to literal millions.

Cannot get over how insanely bad it is to publicise this. It takes a lot for me to side against bar staff, but fucking hell.

It's so inadvisable, I wonder if the person claiming to be the manager, is the manager. Bc no one I know wld dream of posting about smthg like this.

Again, not going to share screenshots or anything, bc whether they really are the bar manager, or just claiming it, the only reason they would be acting as they currently are is bc they are one of those most unfortunate and lamentable people. You know what I mean.

The type who has spent so much time in their Twitter/Only Fans/whatever echo chamber, the principles and ideas of that echo chamber now outweighs their better, more practical & true to life-judgement. That is now drowned out, over the sounds of a few hundred "likes."

Who cares about what immediately makes sense in the moment, when you have those? Who cares about your place of work losing literally thousands in one night, & then 10s of 1000s in the coming months. You stuck it to the symbolic terror of your feeds, as they shuffled in for a g&t.

Neither of the two ppl who contributed to this thread (Oudemia & former colleague) were there last night, & who knows, maybe we would have made the same decision. But especially to call the police, & then post it on social media with mounting antagonism, is blowing our minds.

There is a very good chance that the people who work for publicity & media@belhaven_pubswill have had a panicky phone call on a Sunday, and are now having to figure out how to respond to this shitstorm instead of spending time with their family.

I feel so sorry for all the hospitality workers who are now having to cope with this blowout. It was entirely unnecessary, and so easily descalated, and now the whole fucking shenanigan is being held up for all to see.

Source: twitter.com/Nichivo_/status/1429379644583727105?s=19