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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is it only white middle class women who are GC?

643 replies

Ziegfeld · 24/07/2021 19:27

I recently summoned courage to have “the talk” with an old friend who is gay. I wanted to know his current thoughts on sex based rights, and I thought (as we are old friends) even if we disagreed we could have a civilised conversation about it.

Unfortunately I think he called me transphobic about five minutes into the conversation when I asked, so if we say let’s have self ID, how do we tell whether someone genuinely believes themselves to be a TW or is a man simply announcing he is a woman solely for the purposes of accessing women-only spaces for bad intent. ( His answers to that were “well we need safeguarding” and “there are hardly any TWs, this isn’t a real concern” and “well ideally we should all just have gender neutral changing rooms”)

Some more things were said by both of us which I won’t go into here because I am sure we’ve all heard them before.

But then he said that it’s only white middle class women (like me) who have a problem with self ID and allowing TW access to women’s spaces. He said that working class women and women of colour have no problem at all with it.

I don’t think this is true - look at Allison Bailey for example. But I would be interested to know what other MNers think. Is this a race and class issue? Or is it that white middle class women tend to have more platforms to speak out than other women?

OP posts:
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LostDonkey · 25/07/2021 12:26

@Redapplewreath

If a man wants to be predatory, he'll do it

Do you lock your car? Your front door when you go out? Confused

If you seriously believe that people born female may only be granted consideration for their voices, feelings, needs and issues around privacy, dignity, safety, experiences, inclusion, faith, culture, disability, and all the rest of it from the dregs of what is left over after all male needs and desires have been met.....then aren't you just rampantly sexist to the extent of really pretty much male supremacism?

Women were permitted single sex spaces until it began to inconvenience people born male. They were permitted to be homosexual until it began to inconvenience people born male. Can you really not spot the main issue here?

Exactly. The problem is with eroding the basics of safeguarding. Vitallyli I'm assuming your pov is that if a predatory man wants to rape a woman, he'll just follow them into the loos anyway. So what's the point?

The point is the additional opportunity that the permission for any man to enter into womens spaces provides to predators. If any man can enter the women's loos without comment, it removes the societal safeguards of someone immediately going 'Oi mate, gents over there'. Or another woman noticing a man coming in and alerting reception on their way out.

If any man has the right to enter without question then it gives encouragement to a man with nefarious intentions to chance his luck in finding a woman to assult. He can freely follow her into the loos, wait without anyone challenging his presence until she's alone and then leave without being questioned.

It is hard enough for a woman to prove they have been sexually assulted as it is. CCTV may show a man leaving the loos, if he weren't permitted entry then he is immediately put on the back foot of explaining why he went into the ladies loos.

If he has the right of entry then he doesn't need to prove why he went in and it is up to the woman to provide the evidence that he had other intentions when he entered.

Female only toilets are a basic right that had to be fought for and the attempts to remove them should not be glossed over.

R0wantrees · 25/07/2021 12:35

A Woman's Place is on the Platform: Helen Steel (23 November 2017)

Helen Steel outlines why single sex spaces are so important to girls and women.

WhatKatyDidNot · 25/07/2021 12:44

The problem is with eroding the basics of safeguarding.

Precisely. A lot of safeguarding relies on the Swiss Cheese model, which explains how seemingly minor breaches combine and create large risk. See here:

www.repealthegra.org/blog/swiss-cheese

Welliesandpyjamas · 25/07/2021 12:45

Very ethnocentric arguement in itself from your friend, OP.
In my experience, his assumption is absolute nonsense. Does he maybe mean (also prob a nonsencial assumption) that those with time/inclination to voice their thoughts online are mostly white MC?

Sn0tnose · 25/07/2021 17:22

Your mate is a dickhead.

I grew up on a rough council estate in a single parent family on benefits. I’m not educated; I went to the local comp and didn’t get great grades. I still live on a rough estate now. My job is good for the area but I regularly have to google stuff I read on here because I have never heard of it before and have no idea what it means. Am I working class enough for your friend? If so, I can assure him that he’s talking absolute rubbish. If he doesn’t believe me, I’d invite him to go to any council estate in Britain (I’m assuming he’d consider the residents to be sufficiently working class) and explain the concept of self ID, ask the Staniland question and see how many are in favour of it. Show photos of Laurel Hubbard & Hannah Mouncy and explain why it’s fair to let them compete in sport against their daughters. Explain to them that they’re bigots if they don’t date trans women.

I really dislike this old rubbish that GC feminism is only for white middle class women. Why do they think that women of different ethnicities or wc women don’t care about the safety and welfare of women stuck in prostitution? Or our right to single sex spaces? Or our daughters rights to compete fairly in sport? Or the rights of women in prisons not to be raped in their cells? Or the rights of traumatised women to only have contact with other women? Are we not women too? Are we not affected too? Or are they pretending we don’t have opinions because we’re either oiks or not white, so clearly not worth listening to? It seems to me that the only people who are restricted to a particular group are the white middle class men who are insisting that women shut up, roll over and give their rights up and the white middle class liberal ‘feminists’ who hang onto their every word.

I’m grateful to the women on here, whatever class or ethnicity you all are. Because you’re clever, articulate, well read and if it wasn’t for you, I wouldn’t have a clue how to articulate my beliefs, or what to read to learn more (Still not entirely sure what Simone de Beauvoir was talking about though!)

the real fear is of predatory men, not of transwomen And I thought the point went over MY head sometimes!

Pudmyboy · 25/07/2021 21:28

I am not middle class. I do work with people who are, and they seem much more twaw than those of us not working class. (That said, I have not done a survey!) It would be interesting to know his reaction if you do get him to check out any of the links others have provided.

2Rebecca · 25/07/2021 21:50

Most of the UK are white, especially once you move away from London. My area of Scotland is 95% white. Women are 50+% of the population and this issue affects women more than men in areas such as sport, prisons and changing rooms. Middle class women have the confidence to speak up on this issue and sometimes more free time. We don't live in Africa or China. Why is it so surprising to so many people that white women are speaking up about this in the UK? If they lived in Japan would they be surprised it was Japanese women speaking up?

Yesindeedydoodey · 25/07/2021 22:22

"Does that mean we should therefore give up all laws against these things, security and measures to protect ourselves? No."

Fine ... but how would you actualise such laws, then? I'm damned if I can think of a way. Toilets and changing rooms - even nominally 'public' toilets and changing rooms - are spaces in which private things happen. Legislation is generally about the public realm and can't easily touch what's in the private realm. In practice, that means, for instance, is you can't post a security guard in a women's toilet or changing room who'll challenge somebody by saying, e.g., 'I don't believe you're a woman'. It doesn't work and can't work. It's an absurdity.

Can you imagine the problems that would arise? Said security guard (who has to be big enough and assertive enough for the job - though, nonetheless, presumably can't look in any way mannish) says to a person with ... I don't know, biggish hands and wide shoulders ... 'I don't think you're actually a woman'. And then what? Said security guard demands to see that person's genitals?

Seriously ... think your way through that. The 'cure' is as much, if not more, of a problem than the issue it was meant to deal with. Imagine just one woman - born female - being asked to show that she's female - because she happens to be broad-shouldered or deep-voiced. Jeez. It doesn't bear thinking about. I've known women like that. It's one thing to get mistaken for a man (as this friend was, often), but it's another thing entirely to have to prove that one is a woman, with the force of law behind it.

Folks, I don't think that, in practice, this argument will go anywhere useful at all. The law, and all its available means and instruments of enforcement, are just too clumsy and inept to deal with it. Women's toilets and changing rooms aren't safe places and havens from men. They might feel like that most of the time, but they just aren't. But - again, in practice - it doesn't matter. Transgender women - or even men pretending to be women - are few and far-between. A tiny proportion of those will want to do anything other than use the toilet or get changed. Of all the predatory men there are, few will think going into a women's toilet or changing room is a fine way to prey on a woman. (Really - put yourself in the mind of such a man. Would you? Why follow a woman into a toilet, where there could be other women who could stop you, or at least act as witnesses?)

It's for these reasons, and more, that it's so vanishingly rare for women to get attacked by men in toilets or changing rooms. Really, at bottom, for me: legislate against it, if you want. But I don't think it's going to make the slightest difference in practice. A transwoman will use a women's toilet if that's where she'll feel safest and most comfortable. A predatory man won't care: whatever the law says, he'll only care about getting away with the major crime of preying on a woman. The minor crime of his being illegally in the wrong toilet is not something to which he'll give a second's thought.

At bottom, to me, this debate looks important in theory ... but in practice, it's a nonsense. Most of the time it looks like a discussion about what people should do, while ignoring the ginormous elephant in the room - that of what people just will do, entirely regardless of moral and legal considerations.

NonnyMouse1337 · 25/07/2021 22:23

British Indian here and I'm smart enough to know the difference between women and men. This may come as a surprise to some fools who think biological sex is a social and/or colonial construct. (Spoiler: it isn't)

I have no desire to share my single-sex spaces and services with men, irrespective of whether they have a full set of cock and balls or not.

Plus I have enough self-respect to realise that I have far more in common with other women from all socioeconomic backgrounds and ethnicities, than I do with any man, including those who have the same shade of skin colour as myself.

QueenPeary · 25/07/2021 22:34

Totally agree Nonny - I’ve always felt allegiance with other women, of any age, ethnicity or whatever, as a default, and have more in common with them than with any man. That’s kind of the point of feminism to me. Why would it leave any women out?

It’s bizarre that TRAs attack GC feminists for defining women on the basis of biology - then accuse white feminists of excluding black women from feminism. Why would they when it’s being biological women that we all have in common and it’s all women we need to fight for?

334bu · 25/07/2021 22:34

It's for these reasons, and more, that it's so vanishingly rare for women to get attacked by men in toilets or changing rooms.

Yesindeededooey are you not aware of the UN drive to get female only toilets built in Third World countries? Why are they doing this? Because women and girls get raped in mixed sex facilities.
Do you not read the news outlining the number of crimes committed in the Uk against women and girls in mixed sex changing rooms etc.? The men taking pictures of women undressing. The men masturbating in adjoining changing cubicles. Are you totally unaware of these cases?

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 25/07/2021 22:36

fuck me @Yesindeedydoodey but you are weirdly obsessed with toilets. give it a rest will ya?

oh, and how do you feel about women being locked up with rapists?

R0wantrees · 25/07/2021 22:43

Most of the time it looks like a discussion about what people should do, while ignoring the ginormous elephant in the room - that of what people just will do, entirely regardless of moral and legal considerations.

There will always be clear consequences for men who are determined to act contrary to "legal considerations" in any society. That is not an "elephant in the room" let alone a "ginormous" one.

NonnyMouse1337 · 25/07/2021 22:44

What Yesindeedydoodey is saying is that trans people (compared to the rest of the population) are completely incapable of following laws and social norms. They have an inherent trait of disrespecting and breaking the law. Quite an awful position to take to be honest. You should be ashamed of yourself.

The vast majority of people know how to respect social norms. If someone leaves a bowl of chocolates out and writes a note saying 'please be honest and pay 20p if you take a chocolate bar' then the vast majority of people will do so, because....you know....they are decent human beings. No policing or inspectors standing nearby needed. A tiny minority of arseholes won't pay, and they may get away with it for a while, but if someone happens to see them, they might challenge them or tell everyone else what they have seen. Most social norms are adequately implemented due to shaming among peer groups. It's how human societies function in addition to laws

Many people will look down upon and shame those in their social groups who drive after drinking or drive without wearing a seatbelt.
I'd like to think most trans people are decent, law abiding citizens who understand the importance of single-sex spaces and will respect the social norms related to it. Again, no policing needed. Decent trans people will use the facilities that correspond with their sex or an appropriate third space. Those who refuse to do so should be shamed by their peers and social groups. They will quickly learn it's not the decent thing to do and it won't earn any respect from others.

There will be sleazy, predatory males (which will include some trans people because they are part of the human race like the rest of us) and women can confidently challenge any males that enter such spaces and it is easier to complain to security. It drastically reduces the ease of opportunity for predators because anyone seeing a male walk into a single-sex space can confidently challenge them and tell them to get the fuck out or the police will be called. These social norms have worked fine for a very long time.

2bazookas · 25/07/2021 22:50

But then he said that it’s only white middle class women (like me) who have a problem with self ID and allowing TW access to women’s spaces. He said that working class women and women of colour have no problem at all with it.

Pretty damn sure Muslim women of any class, would have a problem with it. And older white women of any class.

Helleofabore · 25/07/2021 23:14

Yes nonnymouse. I, too, noticed that posters who continue the argument to ‘how would you even police that’ seem to entirely miss the point that they are stating that some males, however they identify, will simply not respect the law or the boundaries of females. That despite any laws, some males will just ignore them anyway….

Surprising isn’t it?

NonnyMouse1337 · 25/07/2021 23:19

@Helleofabore

Yes nonnymouse. I, too, noticed that posters who continue the argument to ‘how would you even police that’ seem to entirely miss the point that they are stating that some males, however they identify, will simply not respect the law or the boundaries of females. That despite any laws, some males will just ignore them anyway….

Surprising isn’t it?

Yup, it's not the clever gotcha they think it is. They are painting trans people in a horrible light. I'm so bored of their stupid and unintelligent points.
Mockolate · 26/07/2021 03:14

Is-it-only-white-middle-class-women-who-are-GC

No, loads of gay men and lesbians and people from all walks of life are GC

Ehh Confused

What am I missing but what have lesbians got to do with anything? Can they not be white and middle class women?

Childrenofthestones · 26/07/2021 06:22

My experience is as a group, it is blue collar working class that are the most GC by far. The biggest twaw cultists and their allies are those that have been through the indoctrination factories know as modern western universities in the last eight or ten years.

LostDonkey · 26/07/2021 06:24

Good morning Yesindeedydoodey

Could you get back to me on my question as to why it is considered unacceptable for Rachel Dolezal to impersonate a black American woman but a man impersontating a woman is fine? What is the difference in these scenarios?

334bu · 26/07/2021 06:37

What am I missing but what have lesbians got to do with anything? Can they not be white and middle class women?

Sure they can, just like many trans activists are rich white privately educated males.

bunnybuggs · 26/07/2021 06:38

@2Rebecca

Most of the UK are white, especially once you move away from London. My area of Scotland is 95% white. Women are 50+% of the population and this issue affects women more than men in areas such as sport, prisons and changing rooms. Middle class women have the confidence to speak up on this issue and sometimes more free time. We don't live in Africa or China. Why is it so surprising to so many people that white women are speaking up about this in the UK? If they lived in Japan would they be surprised it was Japanese women speaking up?
^^this
faithfulbird20 · 26/07/2021 06:40

How can he speak for all working class women and women of colour?

TheWatersofMarch · 26/07/2021 06:40

@Clymene just wanted to add the fantastic Linda Bellos (though she hasn't been in court this year she was hauled in by the Police).

PigletJohn · 26/07/2021 07:53

It certainly isn't "only white middle class women"

With very few exceptions, men are perfectly clear that TWA not W.

Knowing that women exist, and that a man is not a woman, is not an expression of hatred or phobia.

Men are quite willing for trans to be treated with courtesy and respect.

They may not care much, but they know perfectly well that a man is not a woman.

Moving on from that, they know the answer to the questions:

Should a TW have the right to compete in womens sports?

Should a TW have the right to use a womens communal shower?

Should a TW have the right to be locked in a women's prison?

Would you have sex with a TW?

all get the same answer.

It is not "yes."

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