Is it only white middle class women who are GC?

[Ziegfeld]

I recently summoned courage to have “the talk” with an old friend who is gay. I wanted to know his current thoughts on sex based rights, and I thought (as we are old friends) even if we disagreed we could have a civilised conversation about it.

Unfortunately I think he called me transphobic about five minutes into the conversation when I asked, so if we say let’s have self ID, how do we tell whether someone genuinely believes themselves to be a TW or is a man simply announcing he is a woman solely for the purposes of accessing women-only spaces for bad intent. ( His answers to that were “well we need safeguarding” and “there are hardly any TWs, this isn’t a real concern” and “well ideally we should all just have gender neutral changing rooms”)

Some more things were said by both of us which I won’t go into here because I am sure we’ve all heard them before.

But then he said that it’s only white middle class women (like me) who have a problem with self ID and allowing TW access to women’s spaces. He said that working class women and women of colour have no problem at all with it.

I don’t think this is true - look at Allison Bailey for example. But I would be interested to know what other MNers think. Is this a race and class issue? Or is it that white middle class women tend to have more platforms to speak out than other women?

People who can see the unfairness in males competing in women's sport are not limited to white middle-class women. I don't know if any transwomen competitors are expected at the Commonwealth Games next year, but the more people see competitors like Laurel Hubbard the more disquiet there will be.

"Plenty of younger feminists about"

Yes but feminist per se doesn't mean "gender critical".

What do you think feminism means Margarita?

How can you be a feminist and not critical of gender?

@logsonlogsoff

None of the WC people I know ( WC family, friends ,background) seem to give any of this much thought. It’s much more men are men, women are women and trans people are trans. End of. They don’t worry about pronouns and don’t seem to have come in contact with many people asking to have certain pronouns. Maybe they just don’t have the time.

Same here. Most people I know offline never mention trans or gender critical topics as part of small-talk so neither do I.

I asked my family once and they are all just like "if that [changing sex] is what some people want to do then that's fine with me" with nothing else to say.

@OldCrone

What do you think feminism means Margarita?

How can you be a feminist and not critical of gender?

Equality for everyone

When I'm interviewing that answer wouldn't meet out corporate standard on equalities Pie.

Equality for everyone

I think you will find that is egalitarian. Feminists are about ensuring female’s needs are considered. Sometimes that takes a view towards ‘equity’ not ‘equality’.

I fully believe ultimately on egalitarian goals but getting there does NOT mean acting as if females are equal.

@MargaritaPie

"Plenty of younger feminists about"

Yes but feminist per se doesn't mean "gender critical".

Well, you're quoting me, and it does when I say it.

I was thinking of young women like the brilliant Nehanda, of the many young women I've men at various GC events; of my friend's 16 year old and her mates who are setting up a girls-only feminist club at her school.

Also of , Keira Bell, and all the brilliant young women involved in RadicalGirlsss - see four of them here talking about the sexualisation of young migrant women

Just because you're out of touch with what's going on beyond your bubble doesn't mean they don't exist.

I mean equality for everyone in the end, which may need giving some groups a little more help than others to get there.

And equality doesn’t mean males should benefit from programs put in place for females either. Because that delays females achieving equality.

@MargaritaPie

tbh I don't think class has anything to do with it.

Class has everything to do with everything and you haven't got the first clue about what centering women and girls means.

Marion Millar and JK Rowling are both notable "gender criticals" from 2021.

I won't name the town Millar lives but I understand it's rough and has a lot of poverty there. JKR is at the other extreme with multiple properties including a giant mansion that looks like a fairytale castle in the richest part of Edinburgh.

It depends on the person IMO. There will also be LGBT supporters in all areas and classes too.

Equality for everyone may be an admirable goal in its own right, but that's not what feminism is. Feminism is about the liberation of women and girls.

No other liberation movement is expected to extend out to being concerned with 'everyone'. It's recognised that it's fine, even necessary, for a group to come together and focus on their needs and rights without also looking at every other social issue or disadvantaged group in existence. But for some reason feminism gets the 'fight for everyone and everything' treatment.

Incidentally, this is why 'white middle class women' get disparaged so much. Because people don't recognise biological sex as a relevant axis of oppression - they're white and middle class, so they're advantaged. Being women? Why should that matter?

Equality for everyone

So according to Margarita, feminism is not about women. It's about 'everyone'.

Has it not occurred to you, Margarita, that you might have misunderstood? Why would a movement called 'feminism' be about 'everyone'? If it's about everyone, why isn't it called 'personism' or 'humanism'?

Ok. Can I be both a feminist and an egalitarian?

@MargaritaPie

Ok. Can I be both a feminist and an egalitarian?

If you like. But telling women that feminism is about equality for all is the same as saying "all lives matter" to people saying "black lives matter".

We live in a patriarchal society where women and girls have huge pressure to comply with social conventions that turn us into second class citizens. Men are seen as the default human, and this has real life consequences for us, e.g. in health & safety and healthcare where the sexism inherent in the system costs us good health and even our lives.

Liberal feminism with its "all choices women make are feminist choices" and "everyone can be a feminist" and "feminism is about equality for everyone" messages is basically doing an "all lives matter" to the actual feminism that has a record of improving things for women.

@MargaritaPie

I mean equality for everyone in the end, which may need giving some groups a little more help than others to get there.

I'm a wheelchair user. There's help such as accessibility etc which means meeting needs other people don't have, to have equal access to society. But I don't expect other people to be stopped from walking or accessing toilets or to lose their rights to give them to me. That isn't inclusive; that's creating difference, bad feeling and making me stand out in a bad way. Inclusion means a wider range of provision, and when it works well no one is negatively affected, resentful or has lost their provision.

Male people with TQ identities won't get more equality by forcing the removal of it from female people. That weird kind of sacrifice helps no one, as witnessed by the mess of the past few years. And it's based on sexist thinking, not any real interest in inclusion or diversity.

Odd, isn't it, how often activists and politicians have told women that our time will come, just not yet. Lots of other worthy causes to get on with first, so will the women please just shut up and get on with making the tea and stuffing envelopes.

It's a ridiculous notion that feminism is for everyone and should be fighting for all minorities anyone who says that isn't a feminist and doesn't have the first clue about feminism.

@VestofAbsurdity

It's a ridiculous notion that feminism is for everyone and should be fighting for all minorities anyone who says that isn't a feminist and doesn't have the first clue about feminism.

Here's a great video by the brilliant and much missed Magdalen Berns on this topic.

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g

Odd, isn't it, how often activists and politicians have told women that our time will come, just not yet. Lots of other worthy causes to get on with first, so will the women please just shut up and get on with making the tea and stuffing envelopes.

Isn't it just!

But, you know, I'm sure if we just patiently get on with putting everyone else first and not making a fuss, they'll chuck us some good crumbs eventually?

Yay, Magdalen!

This was such a great education for me on some of the pitfalls of liberal feminism.

There are some white middle class men also. the reason there is a lack of people of colour is that as a minority, they know what is happening to the transcommunity because they saw white people do the same to them.

What would be his reasoning for only white middle class women having an opinion on it and working class or women of colour not? Does he think Muslim women (most of whom are not white) wouldn't bat an eyelid at a male being in their changing rooms, toilets or searching them at an airport? Has he ever spoken to a woman of colour or working class woman about it? Clearly you are middle class and white, so does he only hang out with white middle class people and therefore he only hears their opinions?

He's talking shit and saying 'you only think that because you're white middle class' is not an argument. Is your friend also aware that women.. even white women (shock) are historically oppressed?

@DisgustedofManchester

There are some white middle class men also. the reason there is a lack of people of colour is that as a minority, they know what is happening to the transcommunity because they saw white people do the same to them.

I am a woman of colour.

I see little difference between what transwomen and their “allies” do to women and what colonisers did to my ancestors.