Is it only white middle class women who are GC?

[Ziegfeld]

I recently summoned courage to have “the talk” with an old friend who is gay. I wanted to know his current thoughts on sex based rights, and I thought (as we are old friends) even if we disagreed we could have a civilised conversation about it.

Unfortunately I think he called me transphobic about five minutes into the conversation when I asked, so if we say let’s have self ID, how do we tell whether someone genuinely believes themselves to be a TW or is a man simply announcing he is a woman solely for the purposes of accessing women-only spaces for bad intent. ( His answers to that were “well we need safeguarding” and “there are hardly any TWs, this isn’t a real concern” and “well ideally we should all just have gender neutral changing rooms”)

Some more things were said by both of us which I won’t go into here because I am sure we’ve all heard them before.

But then he said that it’s only white middle class women (like me) who have a problem with self ID and allowing TW access to women’s spaces. He said that working class women and women of colour have no problem at all with it.

I don’t think this is true - look at Allison Bailey for example. But I would be interested to know what other MNers think. Is this a race and class issue? Or is it that white middle class women tend to have more platforms to speak out than other women?

Oh Noes!!!!!

Did I miss the answers to my questions? indeedy please answer the questions within the guidelines so we can all see.

The questions that I really want the answer to are;

Please do tell us by what right do you speak for trans people @Yesindeedydoodey. Who nominated you to do so. And how are you representative of trans people?

Because the more you post, the more you sound like you represent the extremist trans activists and not the majority of trans people at all. Regardless of who you think you are representing.

I mean, only someone with extreme views would suggest that women correctly sexing a male would bring about violence. Which it seems you suggested in your deleted post.

You are doing a wonderful job then of convincing people that your view is the righteous one, the side that has the best intentions for ALL women, aren’t you?

@Yesindeedydoodey

Thanks for clearing up for everyone that transwomen will become violent towards women if they don't get what they want, rather than engage with women in a sane and civil manner.

What a shame they will use their superior strength to physically attack women rather than talk with them, respect them, and fight for safe third spaces.

Are you one of these transwomen or do you just have the gall to speak on their behalf? Doesn't sound like something an ally would say...

I saw what you wrote, yesindeedydoody.

Get help. Your anger towards women is not normal.

Get help. Your anger towards women is not normal.

Having now seen it, I wholeheartedly agree. @Yesindeedydoodey you have some anger issues to resolve there.

turning my comments about transwomen into comments about males.

Are you also denying science to the degree that you wish to assert that transwomen are not males there @Yesindeedydoodey.

Shall we just add keep mentioning your science denying along with your misogyny, racism and homophobia. (Because lesbians and black women, as per your post, are actually female believe it or not. As as such pose no risk other than that of any other woman.)

Is there a bit of new trope to discuss indeedy because you really are stuck on the toilet thing and continually use the same arguments and insults. They always are just as entrenched as you seem to be in that misogyny, racism and homophobic quagmire.

But at least in the wording from your post last night, we can probably assume that you are not trans yourself, but have appointed yourself some kind of spokesperson. Rather presumptuous of you, isn't it? Centring yourself, the way you have, in issues that don't actually include you?

@Theeyeballsinthesky

OP I would just love your friend to trundle around say for example Boston (the lincolnshire one) Middlesbrough, Chatham (I was born there) & Wolverhampton with photos of alex Drummond, Laurel Hubbard,& Danielle muscato Abd ask them if they’re a) male or female & b) which changing rooms they should be in

He’s living in an utter bubble which he can afford to do because as always none of this affects him

This.

All self id requires is for any man to just say they're a woman. And, presto, they have a right to be there.

And in the case of WiSpa the male bodied person in the female sauna was assumed to be a transwoman by just by the fact of being in the female sauna by the wokebro who came to his* defence when women complained.

And no request to drop any pants for a genital inspection required. I think the 6 and 9 year old girls got far more information than they wanted or needed.

*used male pronouns as no one has actually come forward to announce their preference.

@Helleofabore Just caught up with your explanation at 9 something yesterday. Thank you. I pretty much have the same opinion as you. I'm seriously against discrimination of non binary or trans people, but at the same time I don't think they are actually the same as women, or have identical experience. I just didn't understand the acronyms. So thank you.

Having now seen it, I wholeheartedly agree. @Yesindeedydoodey you have some anger issues to resolve there.

Same here, I've just seen it. I'm not surprised it was deleted.

@BloomingTrees

Wasn't that a criticism of the suffragettes, yet they managed to get all women the vote.

Yup 💜💚🤍

Working class women and black/ minority ethnic women are more likely to be imprisoned, and therefore more likely to be incarcerated with man in a dress, (probably a sex offender) who claims he is a woman.

The reason w/c and BAME women don't spend a lot of time kvetching over the problem of trans women invading womens spaces, is because most poor women are focused on survival, not ideology.

As a working class woman, I'd say the opposite. Yes, I'm white, but most of the TWAW I know are middle class people/teens living in a bit of a bubble and actually more likely to be male too. I'm surprised how many GC women I actually know when I carefully broach the subject, two are disabled, I suspect being vulnerable makes someone more aware of risks.

Aja's definitely not white middle class. Show him this.

What caused this thread to be resurrected?

Don't you think Gender Critical people are mainly the older generation?

Off the top of my head- Stock, Bindel, Marion Miller, JK Rolwing, Graham Glinehan. All middle-aged/older.

I've seen photos of LGB Alliance meetings and it's all middle-aged and old men and women with not a young person in sight.

Now think about the people who are trans-supportive/not gender-critical- the students who protested against Stock's employment, many Stonewall supporters, the young people who chanted "trans lives matter" to the person wearing LGB Alliance attire to get him to leave at the pride event etc

From this observation, there's an age gap of a generation between gender-criticals and trans-supportive people.

tbh I don't think class has anything to do with it.

@MargaritaPie

Don't you think Gender Critical people are mainly the older generation?

Off the top of my head- Stock, Bindel, Marion Miller, JK Rolwing, Graham Glinehan. All middle-aged/older.

I've seen photos of LGB Alliance meetings and it's all middle-aged and old men and women with not a young person in sight.

Now think about the people who are trans-supportive/not gender-critical- the students who protested against Stock's employment, many Stonewall supporters, the young people who chanted "trans lives matter" to the person wearing LGB Alliance attire to get him to leave at the pride event etc

From this observation, there's an age gap of a generation between gender-criticals and trans-supportive people.

Not a hard and fast rule, no. Plenty of younger feminists about.

Plus, loads of older TRAs - e.g. Peter Tatchell and Billy Bragg to name just two.

I think it's usually the opposite. I'm a high school drop out, working class woman and could see this nonsense a mile off.

I think pie you are spreading disinformation as usual.

It is interesting to consider the findings of two Yougov surveys.

yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2021/12/22/cancel-culture-what-views-are-britons-afraid-expre

I believe there is a link to the first survey on this link too.

The first survey done earlier in the year found that age group you are referring to were the ‘least’ tolerant of other’s opinions. And this survey, released just before Christmas, showed just how little women in general felt safe from negative repercussions from giving their true opinions. Therefore, the message there is, generally women will only speak out if they are in a position that won’t cause them financial /personal hardship.

Who would that be? Most likely women older than the age group you refer to. Hence the people you refer to.

It is not rocket science when you look at the amount of abuse that Joanne Rowling has received. And apparently, it is not her words people like Nancy Kelly has issue with. Just the fact she even utters them from a position of power that makes her ‘transphobic’.

And great that you brought up the despicable behaviour of the crowd the day they abused, assaulted even and harassed a gay man for wearing apparel from the group that works to progress the need of those of the sexual orientations of lesbian, gay and bisexual. It was really appalling.

Of course, there will be a skew towards younger people there (although the proud instigators were not in that age group of I remember correctly). It was during a pandemic, AND some people have parental responsibilities meaning they would not be able to attend events such as that particular day. People with children do tend to be older that the age group you are referring too. (Hint: Look at the statistics for first time mothers ).

So, let’s look at this again.

The group you refer to is known to be the most intolerant group, and known to subject others to appalling abuse, harassment and even assault for daring to wear a logo of another group. Women in general are known to not discuss their true opinions openly about supporting their own rights.

Rather a totalitarian sounding age group isn’t it? Glad you brought it up.

I’m working class in a very low paid job. In my area it’s not that there is a belief in TWAW, it’s more it’s a load of nonsense and got better things to worry about.

It’s middle class white kids that are very much TRAs, the same type of people who like to squat or are “anti-work”, communists etc....

I think middle class women may be more likely to articulate the arguments online and to organise petitions and letter-writing campaigns and all the great things we've seen over the past few years. Not that no working class women do it, but there seems to be a correlation.

It would be a big mistake to assume that this means working class women believe TWAW. Most of us don't. Most think it's daft and don't fall for any of the 'be kind, use the pronouns' stuff that ties in to some extent with middle class respectability. The trouble is that those I've discussed it with seem to think it's some weird fringe phenomenon confined to universities and the like, not a real problem. And even for those who know exactly what's going on, sometimes there are other, immediate life problems that have to take priority.

The discussion about the suffragettes is interesting. So many of my students assume that black women gained suffrage rights much later than white women in this country, and that the suffragettes were 'all middle class white women' and so this makes them unimportant or bad and not worth studying. It's a really common misconception and I can only guess that it comes from identity politics.

It’s also fair to say that many
younger TRAs seem to be very loud and intolerant. Both my sons are GC (and have friends who are) but say that it’s very difficult, if not impossible, to express GC views, especially in a university, without being vilified.

I think older people have a lot more awareness of how trans status can be exploited by dangerous men.

There's the thing that your brain doesn't finish maturing until you're late 20s, and I completely believe that looking back at my, and my friends lives.

Back in my 20s I thought feminism had won, that it was all good now, but that's because I could shrug off what little misogyny I was subjected to as banter (even the rape!). I didn't experience the really punching stuff until I had kids, then I looked back and it was like a veil had been lifted and it all clicked together.

Much like until last year I'd been in a 15 year abusive (mentally and financially) relationship, but like the boiled frog, I excused it all until I got out, and finally looked back and it was like the sun rising - illuminating how everything was a continued campaign to keep me in line.

None of the WC people I know ( WC family, friends ,background) seem to give any of this much thought. It’s much more men are men, women are women and trans people are trans. End of. They don’t worry about pronouns and don’t seem to have come in contact with many people asking to have certain pronouns.
Maybe they just don’t have the time.