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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is it only white middle class women who are GC?

643 replies

Ziegfeld · 24/07/2021 19:27

I recently summoned courage to have “the talk” with an old friend who is gay. I wanted to know his current thoughts on sex based rights, and I thought (as we are old friends) even if we disagreed we could have a civilised conversation about it.

Unfortunately I think he called me transphobic about five minutes into the conversation when I asked, so if we say let’s have self ID, how do we tell whether someone genuinely believes themselves to be a TW or is a man simply announcing he is a woman solely for the purposes of accessing women-only spaces for bad intent. ( His answers to that were “well we need safeguarding” and “there are hardly any TWs, this isn’t a real concern” and “well ideally we should all just have gender neutral changing rooms”)

Some more things were said by both of us which I won’t go into here because I am sure we’ve all heard them before.

But then he said that it’s only white middle class women (like me) who have a problem with self ID and allowing TW access to women’s spaces. He said that working class women and women of colour have no problem at all with it.

I don’t think this is true - look at Allison Bailey for example. But I would be interested to know what other MNers think. Is this a race and class issue? Or is it that white middle class women tend to have more platforms to speak out than other women?

OP posts:
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PineappleMojito · 27/12/2021 18:02

A lot of people where I’m from (north east) voted Tory because they don’t feel labour represents the working class anymore. They see them as being full of middle class woke folk. I think many of them would count as GC without knowing what it even is - just that they know what men and women are! Ditto when I used to live in a city with a large Muslim population. It represents a massive problem for Muslim women and their social and cultural inclusion if sex segregated facilities can’t be guaranteed - there were a lot of women only fitness studios etc there for example.

VestofAbsurdity · 27/12/2021 18:09

@DisgustedofManchester

There are some white middle class men also. the reason there is a lack of people of colour is that as a minority, they know what is happening to the transcommunity because they saw white people do the same to them.
Spouting the usual rubbish, I see.

The recent court cases and pending court cases blow your nonsense out of the water.

Artichokeleaves · 27/12/2021 18:26

Maya Forstata, Julie Bindel, Kiera Bell, Alison Bailey.....

'white' and 'middle class' being used here to mean 'wrong kind of people who shouldn't have rights'. Come on D of M, you haven't managed to fit right wing, Christian or anti-abortionism in yet, you know you want to! Misogyny loves names to sling at females getting out of their box. Grin

Artichokeleaves · 27/12/2021 18:28

And really sorry about this, but inclusion and equality and the EqA2010 does cover everyone. Even the female ones. Even the white female ones. Even the white, female, middle class ones who say no .

That's the thing about inclusion and equal rights: they don't just apply to men. And females don't exist to service males and do the caretaking.

ArabellaScott · 27/12/2021 19:44

Yes, Artichoke, it's just another attempt to smear gc feminism with tedious untruths. Demonstrably untrue, and I don't even have the energy nor the inclination to list the black and Asian women involved in trying to save women's rights from being dismantled, again.

dropthevipers · 27/12/2021 20:17

white, middle aged working class bloke here-neither I nor none of my mates see the trans rights nutters as anything other than, er, nutters.

barleybadminton · 27/12/2021 20:32

@Artichokeleaves

Maya Forstata, Julie Bindel, Kiera Bell, Alison Bailey.....

'white' and 'middle class' being used here to mean 'wrong kind of people who shouldn't have rights'. Come on D of M, you haven't managed to fit right wing, Christian or anti-abortionism in yet, you know you want to! Misogyny loves names to sling at females getting out of their box. Grin

Interesting isn't it that the woman who have put themselves on the line and endured the stress of court cases have been largely women of colour whilst their often rather privileged white compatriots cheer them on from the sidelines consequence free.
Artichokeleaves · 27/12/2021 20:35

If you want to talk about privileged white people we could start with the massive majority of late transitioning males, and the Deptford Women's Project letter.

Artichokeleaves · 27/12/2021 20:37

Not to mention that Keira, Alison et al often have to explain loudly that they are evidence that they are not white privileged women as political lobbyists try to dismiss them - if they were, as proven here, they would be sneered at as not deserving anything due to the colour of their skin and the circumstances they live in. But as Keira et al demonstrate in your post, women get sneered at anyway by this lobby, whoever they are and whatever they do.

Not very kind, or inclusive, is it?

VestofAbsurdity · 27/12/2021 20:38

Interesting isn't it that those women of colour were targeted by white middle class members of the patriarchy. Interesting also that the damning comments and abuse directed at them comes from white, middle class, supposedly liberal and tolerant types who are also, in the main, men and/or TW and allies.

As for consequence free, your pants are on fire.

barleybadminton · 27/12/2021 20:51

@VestofAbsurdity

Interesting isn't it that those women of colour were targeted by white middle class members of the patriarchy. Interesting also that the damning comments and abuse directed at them comes from white, middle class, supposedly liberal and tolerant types who are also, in the main, men and/or TW and allies.

As for consequence free, your pants are on fire.

How do you know that the clinicians who treated Keira Bell, or the barristers in Bailey's old chambers or the think tank managers who decided to end Maya Forstater's contract were all white?

A revealing assumption.

ArabellaScott · 27/12/2021 21:21

Interesting isn't it that the woman who have put themselves on the line and endured the stress of court cases have been largely women of colour whilst their often rather privileged white compatriots cheer them on from the sidelines consequence free.

Right. So we have a drive-by shit-slinging post that claims feminism is all about white women, and when references to the women of colour/black women/asian women involved are given, then that's somehow proof of racism, too?

Do you also require a list of all the white women who've lost jobs and sacrified enormous amounts of time, energy and money working for women's rights, or are you just going to find another reason to sneer at women regardless?

That's a rhetorical question. You are just trying to throw whatever mud you can find in the hope that something sticks. Making it up, talking nonsense, and contributing nothing of value.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 27/12/2021 21:38

I saw a couple of trans activists on twitter once, mocking a mixed race women's rights protester for the colour of her skin after a demonstration in Edinburgh.

They (and the people who liked the comments) assumed her natural skin colour was fake tan and mocked her for it.I think it speaks to the whiteness of trans activism that they could see a mixed race woman and assume her skin colour wasn't real.

archive.i s/CM4rt
archive.i s/NIqmA

ArabellaScott · 27/12/2021 21:42

Remember it well, Potholes.

Helleofabore · 27/12/2021 22:05

Yes. That was a spectacular example on just how ‘kind’ these activists are. How socially aware and how sensitive they are to other marginalised groups….. telling that brave young woman that she had a bad fake tan was very enlightening on all levels.

It was like the activists protesting in front of the prisons seminar telling the women going in that they needed to lose weight and ‘woman’ better (ie. Work on their appearance)

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 27/12/2021 22:39

Those protesters also racially abused black people who happened to be attending a different conference nearby.

Content Warning: direct quotes from the activists' misogynistic and racist attacks.

Quote from WPUK

After attendees, staff and volunteers were subject to an abusive protest at our recent meeting, A Woman’s Place is NOT in prison, we have written the following letter to the Socialist Workers Party (SWP) calling on them to repudiate racism, misogyny and other abuse at any protests they are associated with.

As this is a matter of great importance for feminists, socialists, people of colour and trade unionists we feel it is essential that any exchange of views is in the public domain.

This blog contains details of misogynistic, racist and other abuse.

Dear SWP,

Your paper’s coverage of the protests against Professor Kathleen Stock at the University of Sussex made it clear that the SWP believes it is legitimate for women who recognise that sex is a material reality to be harassed and intimidated at their workplace. The protests have now resulted in Professor Stock being obliged to leavethe university. While the piece does say that women like us should not be driven out of our jobs, it gave a signal to your members that they have your organisation’s support if they take part in such protests, whatever the professional or personal impact on the targeted woman.

D, who identifies as an SWP member on Twitter, organised just such a protest at our public meeting AWoman’s Place Is (Not) In Prison on Wednesday October 27th at the QE2 Centre in London.

D’s public Twitter feed encourages people to join the SWP. D has retweeted statements suggesting that protesting at events like ours is a form of “anti-fascist solidarity”. The same individual also tweeted the time and location of our meeting encouraging people to protest at it and described Joanna Cherry MP and women who share her opinions as “absolute Nazis”.

Almost 600 women had bought tickets to hear an all-woman panel discuss how prison punishes women for being poor, violently abused and vulnerable. It was a meeting which would have been of interest to any socialist or feminist as it was discussing the cruelties of the prison system and alternatives to it for vulnerable working-class women.

There were only about six protestors and videos of them are circulating widely online.

Our event coincided with a conference for Black people in business as part of Black History Month. [bold mine]

People attending our event and the Black business meeting, venue staff and our stewards were subjected to the most extreme outpouring of racist and misogynistic abuse. The apparent organiser and leader of the protest, D, and the SWP by association, bear responsibility for the protestors’ language and behaviour.

These include comments such as:

“Shut the fck up, you cnt”shouted into the face of our chief steward.

“Call Weightwatchers, your body’s not doing it.”

“Your hair is minging, buy a weave.” [bold mine]

“Your breath smells like you’ve been eating are, have you been eating her ase?”

“Are you a lesbian? No man would want that.”

“Your breasts are on the floor, buy a bra and some hair dye too.”

“You fucking bald b*tch.”

“You’re a stuck-up b*tch.”

“I have a better body than you. Like, you have no bum. How do you sit down? What kind of man would want you? A blind man?”

“We don’t want pensioners. We don’t want dinosaurs like all you lot. You are not going to be around in 40 years. Well, 40’s a push.”

“You call yourself a woman? DIE! DIE! DIE!”

To people arriving for the Black Business event (who did not interact with the protestors): [bold mine]

“You went through slavery, you went through discrimination, rape, sexual harassment, the slave masters raped and sexually abused you and now you are abusing me, as a trans woman?”

“You were persecuted. You were nothing under slavery.”

“You look me in the eye. Your ancestors went through slavery and you are here. Hang your head in shame. Slave Master! Yes! Slave Master!”

“You call yourself Black people?”

“Why are you here? Are you supporting these Nazis? Are you supporting neo-Nazis?”

We are asking that the SWP openly stands up to racism and misogyny organised and facilitated by one of its members. As a self-described socialist taking part in the protest and someone who has spoken on behalf of Stand Up To Racism, D had a duty either to tell his collaborators to stop the racism, misogyny and offensive behaviour against women at the venue or to walk away from it. D did neither but instead contributed to it.

It will be apparent to you from watching the videos that our activists refused to engage with the abuse. We are committed to respectful debate on questions of sex and gender with people who disagree with us.

The intimidation to which we were subjected by people who are practising what you preach will not prevent us from organising other major events in the coming months.

We are part of a resurgent women’s liberation movement to which your group is hostile. We accept that, but we would like an assurance that if your members take your paper’s advice and protest against us that they will not permit abusive, racist, misogynistic behaviour at mobilisations for which you are politically responsible.

Some of our activists work alongside SWP members in unions and campaigns. This is an impossible relationship to maintain if people in the SWP are saying in public that we are equivalent to fascists. If this is now the approved position of the SWP it needs to be stated explicitly. If it is not, that also needs to be stated explicitly, if only for the benefit of your members who seem unclear on the question.

The best way for your organisation to do that is to publish a public statement unequivocally repudiating racism, ageism and misogyny which will remind your supporters that they are unacceptable in every circumstance.

WPUK

You can read this and the SWP's response here:

womansplaceuk.org/2021/10/30/open-letter-swp-abusive-protest/

VestofAbsurdity · 27/12/2021 23:23

The revealing assumption is that you totally ignored the second part of my comment as to the class and ethnicity of the people who attack and abuse Maya, Allison, Kiera, Racquel Rosario-Sanchez, and many others for having the temerity to go to Court in the first place.

As for the rest, I looked, it's not difficult.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 27/12/2021 23:40

Racism is so rife within the trans demand community that it's hard not to trip over it at times.

For example, here's a discussion of some here.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3965789--Black-Cis-Women-are-destroying-the-black-community

WomanStillNotAFeeling · 27/12/2021 23:51

I’m tired of middle class white men deciding what I am based on whatever it is they want to exclude me from

NonnyMouse1337 · 28/12/2021 02:18

I'm Indian. I find gender ideology the most disgusting and offensive ideology around - not to mention the sexism and racism that underpins its morally bankrupt foundations. There's nothing its most zealous believers won't shamelessly appropriate or endorse to justify the ideology.

SantaClawsServiette · 28/12/2021 03:13

I kind of wonder, isn't maybe a more basic question, what kinds of numbers would be ok?

The UK is a mainly white country, because its in norther Europe. That is not some immoral geographical situation. And for the last 60 or 70 years it's been increasingly middle class, like a lot of nations with modern economies.

So, chances are any group with broad appeal is going to include a lot of white middle class people.

NonnyMouse1337 · 28/12/2021 03:46

I kind of wonder, isn't maybe a more basic question, what kinds of numbers would be ok?

You're approaching an irrational ideology with rationality.

Gender zealots like to throw these stupid statements around because they know many white people feel scared of the 'racist' label and are easily guilt tripped even when there's nothing to be concerned or ashamed about.

In a country like the UK, the predominant demographic for both the GC and gender zealots will be white, precisely because that's the majority.

Sensible people grasp this automatically. Gender zealots aren't known for making intelligent points. They just like to throw their faeces around and hope some of it sticks so it makes them feel like they have the moral high ground - which they very obviously don't.

Helleofabore · 28/12/2021 12:27

Interesting isn't it that the woman who have put themselves on the line and endured the stress of court cases have been largely women of colour whilst their often rather privileged white compatriots cheer them on from the sidelines consequence free.

This is such a contorted and bizzarre take.

But then again, not so surprising. I mean, didn’t you accuse me of lying when I said that I saw the original GG leader who posts in a sexualised nature on SM of their ‘bath’ photo?

And you have a habit of never returning to threads where your behaviour is called out and your posts disproved.

Bizarre posts like this just add to your credibility value on MN. The readers pick these things up very quickly. But just in case they haven’t yet, I will encourage you to keep on posting.

barleybadminton · 28/12/2021 12:33

But then again, not so surprising. I mean, didn’t you accuse me of lying when I said that I saw the original GG leader who posts in a sexualised nature on SM of their ‘bath’ photo?

You did lie about the GG leader. You repeatedly said her name was a sexual reference without any evidence at all to back up whether it was true. So I'm afraid that impacted on how credible I think the things you claim are. Fool me once etc

Helleofabore · 28/12/2021 12:44

No. I did not lie.

Posting images of yourself in BDSM gear declaring yourself a mistress, posting pics of your cleavage and asking posters if they want to see more, posting a profile image of you in a bath that is then superimposed over a line up with small girls with their faces shown and then seeing the name referring to teabags and is which then refers to the sexual act is not lying barley. And there is actually no evidence to the contrary that you can provide to the contrary. Just a claim that it isn’t so.

And you accused me of lying about the my claim of seeing the full profile shot. Which was then posted by another poster and was as I described. So, don’t try to twist it. You were absolutely wrong and you know it.