Is it only white middle class women who are GC?

[Ziegfeld]

I recently summoned courage to have “the talk” with an old friend who is gay. I wanted to know his current thoughts on sex based rights, and I thought (as we are old friends) even if we disagreed we could have a civilised conversation about it.

Unfortunately I think he called me transphobic about five minutes into the conversation when I asked, so if we say let’s have self ID, how do we tell whether someone genuinely believes themselves to be a TW or is a man simply announcing he is a woman solely for the purposes of accessing women-only spaces for bad intent. ( His answers to that were “well we need safeguarding” and “there are hardly any TWs, this isn’t a real concern” and “well ideally we should all just have gender neutral changing rooms”)

Some more things were said by both of us which I won’t go into here because I am sure we’ve all heard them before.

But then he said that it’s only white middle class women (like me) who have a problem with self ID and allowing TW access to women’s spaces. He said that working class women and women of colour have no problem at all with it.

I don’t think this is true - look at Allison Bailey for example. But I would be interested to know what other MNers think. Is this a race and class issue? Or is it that white middle class women tend to have more platforms to speak out than other women?

Always enlightening when gender ideologues confirm how misogynistic, homophobic and racist they are.

1. He's wrong. IME most working class women can see through artifice and bullshit so effortlessly, they wouldn't give its discussion house room.

2. 'Only ... think that' is just a lazy dismissal that says 'I have no decent arguments against this position, so will attempt to dismiss it ad hominem'. I've experienced 'only feminists think that' / 'that's the sort of thing feminists say', more than enough times to know this.

The reasons why will become perfectly obvious, the moment you can get past your own selfish concerns and put yourself in their position. They'll want to use the toilets to pee or poop, or changing rooms to get changed, and that is that. They'll have had all too many miseries in their lives to want to hassle ciswomen in any way at all

So, indeedy, I'll ask again. I am coming back to your earlier post.

Is it acceptable for a male to expose their penis to a six or nine year old girl less than a metre away in a hot tub in the naked female section of a spa? Is it then acceptable for that male to get into the hot tub with a naked child?

What about if that male’s penis is semi erect?

Is that ok? Because this is what you are saying is ok by your assertion. And by the way. It happened - twice (well the first time was a six year old girl and the penis wasn't semi erect but still a male exposed their penis at eye level less than a metre from the face of a six year old.) And you are proud to support that it seems.

Also, your comment shows just how little you actually know about most female toilet experiences. It shows your complete ignorance and your misogyny. Females don't just use toilets for pee or poop. Far from it. Which is why females don't just need safety, they also need privacy and dignity away from the male, ANY MALE, gaze.

Jeez. This all boils down to: Just get real and stop being such utter, flimsy, squealing snowflakes.

You really get infuriated when women say no to you, don't you?

If your son were to become a woman - a transwoman, man-pretending-to-be-a-woman, whatever label you choose to use - what would you say? Would you say to her - him, if you prefer - 'Continue to use the men's toilets, because you're not female, and if you keep getting beaten up in men's toilets, that's your problem?' God help you, if so, because, in my view, you don't deserve to be a parent and don't deserve that child.

You constantly have to resort to hyperbole don't you Indeedy.

We know that there are males who identify as women who use the male toilets. They tell us. Thank you, though, for highlighting the true 'villains' (hyperbole from me there) which are the MALES beating up other males for whatever reason.

The toilet issue has become your focus here.

What about

• Males who are competing in female sports events? Do you think that is fair?
• Recently transitioned males in Women's Officer roles where they have influence over the lives of females through involvement in policy setting, and other more direct actions. You are very comfortable with that?
• Traumatised females having the choice of health care provider in rape examinations. Do you think they should?
• Males who have had all the advantages in educational opportunities and career progression (maybe including having the other parent to bring up the kids so they can focus on their career), who now identify as women, collecting awards intended to inspire women in the workplace. You are comfortable with that?

Either way, Indeedy. I would hope that if I had a son, I would have instilled a very high level of respect for women and their needs in him. Enough respect that they would realise that if there was an issue for them to use the male toilets, as is their sex, then they would actively campaign for a solution and not just use the female toilets.

Because Indeedy, that is parenting. Teaching respect for all. Making sure that your changed needs are met, not by them impinging on others needs, but by being met with solutions that work for others as well as you. I would also hope that any child of mine, would have had the mental health support to cope with acknowledging their reality and living with the fact that sex matters sometimes.

That is also maturity.

The toilet issue has become your focus here.

How surprising.

Transwoman may suffer abuse in the gents as may small men, BAME men , gay men, disabled men

let them all in the ladies ?

What about Kevin who was once randomly attacked?

Snd Kevin's mate who is scared because Kevin was attacked

And the mate of the mate of kevin

Alternatively, we could think about how society needs to change so that beating up any body is not normal

And some unisex cubicles

@Ereshkigalangcleg

The toilet issue has become your focus here.

How surprising.

Like night follows day

I don't know about anyone else, but I find this obsession with toilets more than a little bit creepy.

Yes to those supporting women. It's mums net.
Meanwhile, at least one woman in prison in California is pregnant by a male masquerading as a women to get into the chicken coop. This is why women's spaces matter. Women, even U.S. prisoners matter too.

@midgemagneto

Transwoman may suffer abuse in the gents as may small men, BAME men , gay men, disabled men

let them all in the ladies ?

What about Kevin who was once randomly attacked?

Snd Kevin's mate who is scared because Kevin was attacked

And the mate of the mate of kevin

Alternatively, we could think about how society needs to change so that beating up any body is not normal

And some unisex cubicles

I can remember an old work colleague telling me about his son got badly beaten up in the men's loo when out clubbing once. Big burly uni student. It really put him off going out for a long time. Like you say, its not just 'atypical' men who are at risk and the answer is not to give violent males a free pass and put the responsibility on women. Third option is the best solution in my opinion.

And then there's the question of how, exactly, we're to police any law prohibiting those without the 'correct tackle downstairs' going into the 'wrong toilet'. I mean, really, how would that work? Would you have a large, strong (and possibly quite manly-looking) female security guard posted outside every women's toilet? What would she do - demand of every blokey-looking woman that she drop her knickers as proof?

OK, so what about identity cards, that show that you were born female or male? Really, you want the State forcing everyone to carry identity cards, for the sole purpose of proving who is and isn't female for twhen it comes to using public toilets?

This stuff is ludicrous.

Do you not understand how transphobic you assertion is that males who identify as women will simply ignore laws, show complete disrespect for the sex they identify as being part of, by continuing to use single sex spaces set aside for females?

In the past, it was actually mostly societal pressure that kept males out of the female facilities.

This stuff is ludicrous.

yes, and the only people proposing it is trans activists. You all use this, and it is tired old trope now, as a 'gotcha'. But it is no gotcha and you are transphobic in suggesting such a thing.

Please do tell us by what right do you speak for trans people @Yesindeedydoodey. Who nominated you to do so. And how are you representative of trans people?

What on earth is GC? Gender?

Interesting isn't it, how many of these male activists are prepared to break the law if they think they will get away with it. What other laws do they break I wonder.

@Tinpotspectator

What on earth is GC? Gender?

Gender critical

GC is the abbreviation of Gender Critical.

I don't use it myself but it is used to denote a group of people who believe that sex cannot change, ever. But people can present how ever they like and if they want to call that 'gender' then that is fine. However, in some things sex matters. Particularly in regards to women's rights set aside to assist females to address the millennia of sexist discrimination experienced because of our female bodies.

All trans people need and deserve their own rights to fit their unique purpose.

Interesting isn't it, how many of these male activists are prepared to break the law if they think they will get away with it. What other laws do they break I wonder.

Yes, Jorrris. That is exactly the point that indeedy and others who keep bringing up the 'genital inspectors' miss.

Do tell us @Yesindeedydoodey. If those males cannot be trusted to follow the laws and any rules they disagree with, why should they be allowed to access single sex spaces again?

Why do you feel they should be given any special consideration in the safeguarding processes needed to protect women and children again?

Do you really not understand what you are advocating for? or are you simply so entrenched in repeating the lines fed to you from twitter that you cannot think critically for yourself?

Thank you @Helleofabore

I don't know about anyone else, but I find this obsession with toilets more than a little bit creepy.

There's a couple or more answers to that.

Firstly, it allows the poster to say pee and poop repeatedly. (Poop is such an infantile word.)

Secondly, it takes the thread away from the main focus.

Thirdly, the implication is that women are making a big fuss about nothing. That we are the ones obsessed because it's no big deal because a) men have always accessed it and b) what you're going to do, a genital inspection? The poster and other people on the right side of history like to belittle women and our concerns as being just about denying TW the right to pee and "poop". That we are the unreasonable ones.

Oh, and fourthly, it stops the conversation turning to all the other issues that hellofabore mentioned to indeedy earlier.

More for @Tinpotspectator

The term GC has been misunderstood greatly and is used as a slur sometimes.

Some people have mistakenly believed that it means that because women believe that sex cannot change, that we also believe in gender stereotypes and that we believe that being female dictates our personalities, our interests, our clothing, everything.

I, and many others, believe that being female is our reality. The body we have. We can wear what we want, do what we want, and that we have personalities that are so different and unique and not dependent on our body. However, our specific needs because of our sex cannot be ignored.

Many people supporting gender need gender stereotypes to do so. For instance non-binary people rely on everyone being 'binary' and having a gender that relates to their sex. Many people who are labelled 'GC' don't identify with any gender, they are just who they are. Therefore mostly everyone is also non-binary.

The issues really lay in how to apply gender to the world we live in to allow those with a gender to be not discriminated against because of their gender. Unfortunately, many people supporting gender wish to repurpose the rights of women to fit 'gender' not sex and therefore that dilutes the protections that women fought for so long for. Dilutes it, and in some instances removes those protections completely.

This thread is useful for back reading.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3145470-Break-it-down-for-me?msgid=109784154#109784154

Chickeny

Transwomen are male. And the law favours women, no matter how many sexist, racist and homophobic false equivalents you bring up.

And, by the way, threats of violence against women who tell the truth about transwomen being male are not likely to win people over to your cause.

And by the way, little tip, if it pertains to your outlook: If you want to say to a transwoman that she's actually male ... make sure she's a very small transwoman.

Ahh. Threats of male violence if women don't agree with gender ideology. What happened to the cries of but we just want to pee and transwomen are safer in female spaces away from men.

This rhetoric is just not true is it. It's bullshit. The mask has slipped. And the whole world can see you. No more hiding in the shadows

And newsflash: transwomen are men.

Get over it. You're going to have to get used to transwomen in women's toilets

That won't be happening darling.

Males will do as they please, silly women.

Blabbity blabbity bler blah blah.

Etc.

Who fucking cares what these bullies think? They just like goading women on the internet. Heads up, wims. Every day there is more sunlight, and every day more people see these arses for who they are.

Spend your evening doing something life-affirming, don't waste it being wound up by the inconsequential troglodytes who are far too fond of their own bollocks.