Is it only white middle class women who are GC?

[Ziegfeld]

I recently summoned courage to have “the talk” with an old friend who is gay. I wanted to know his current thoughts on sex based rights, and I thought (as we are old friends) even if we disagreed we could have a civilised conversation about it.

Unfortunately I think he called me transphobic about five minutes into the conversation when I asked, so if we say let’s have self ID, how do we tell whether someone genuinely believes themselves to be a TW or is a man simply announcing he is a woman solely for the purposes of accessing women-only spaces for bad intent. ( His answers to that were “well we need safeguarding” and “there are hardly any TWs, this isn’t a real concern” and “well ideally we should all just have gender neutral changing rooms”)

Some more things were said by both of us which I won’t go into here because I am sure we’ve all heard them before.

But then he said that it’s only white middle class women (like me) who have a problem with self ID and allowing TW access to women’s spaces. He said that working class women and women of colour have no problem at all with it.

I don’t think this is true - look at Allison Bailey for example. But I would be interested to know what other MNers think. Is this a race and class issue? Or is it that white middle class women tend to have more platforms to speak out than other women?

@NannyOggsWhiskyStash

So am guessing that the warning that my gay son gave me about transphobic bigots on MN was true. Really expected more tolerance and empathy, transwomen are often horribly abused and maltreated, we should stand with them.

I have plenty of empathy. My empathy lies with the vulnerable women being locked up in prison with rapists. My empathy lies with the vulnerable/abused/religious women and girls who can no longer use Female single sex spaces because Males are using the too. My empathy lies with the 9 year old girl subjected to a full bodied Male in the jacuzzi in a supposed female space in a spa. My empathy lies with the Transwidows who have had to deal with the horrendous behaviour of their husbands and pick up the pieces whilst their exes swan off into their "fabulous" new lives. My empathy lies with all the women who have been doxxed, no platformed, sacked and been on the receiving end of terrible abuse and death threats for saying biological sex exists. Where is your empathy for all of these women and girls?

I think you should learn to read the fucking room @NannyOggsWhiskyStash

Warnings that women will never be able to avoid men anywhere no matter how much they need to because men matter more and they'll do what they want regardless, followed by fear from a woman carrying trauma due to treatment by men. What's the best response? Shout 'bigot' and try to shame concerned women.

I haven't read the whole thread but definitely think your friend is talking bollocks. I'm not white and my class group is probably less clear cut but I don't feel middle class given I'm not a homeowner and I claim child tax credits. I would agree with PP that actually BAME people are probably generally less likely to believe TWAW than white people.

NannyOggs, I have no idea what your son has been going through. I am sorry if it was hard. We have a thread about gay men going atm, I posted on it about how hard it was for one of my friends to come out.

But why on Earth post such a generalising post, accusing everyone here of transphobia without any substance whatsoever? Please report any transphobia you see. It will be deleted.

And was it necessary to post that straight after chickeny’s post? It comes across as totally dismissing a woman’s fear of male violence.

@ArabellaScott

Chickeny . Have you got support out there? There's plenty for you here, too. Be excessively kind to yourself.

Most of my RL friends aren't aware of the truth about the current state of trans led change. They are aware of the rapes and assaults and DV of course, although some things are too shameful to speak out loud.

But they have no idea about men pushing in to women's spaces no. I haven't broached the subject because I don't go out very often anymore.

Anyway, sorry to derail. X

By the way, I'm not sure why a mumsnetter, whatever her personal beliefs and philosophy, needs to be "warned" about the forum culture of her parenting website by one of her children. I'm sure NannyOgg has been using MN for years and doesn't need his guidance!

But seeing as he's giving it, ask him what he thinks about the following post.

thread follows

I asked a close friend for his thoughts on what I should tweet for #WorldAIDSDay. He’s what he sent me.

A thread from a gay man living with HIV.

1/ On 27th July 2015 I was diagnosed with HIV at Chalmers street clinic, Edinburgh. It really ruined the festival for me that year.

2/ I barely left my flat for four weeks. I also didn’t wash, change my clothes or eat regularly. I cried a lot and thought about suicide even more. I did leave the house daily to attend hurriedly arranged appointments at Chalmers Street because they had got it wrong obviously.

3/ They hadn’t. Didn’t see a single show at the fringe either. I’d split up with my partner 2 months earlier. I lost my new job, that happens when you don’t turn up for 4 weeks. So new start completely fucked then. Rent isn’t free so you can imagine how my finances were going.

4/ It felt like everything was ending. I mean, it was. I was on the edge of a complete mental break and suicidal. I was dragged back from the edge by the amazing team at the Chalmers Street Clinic and the ever-patient Gay Men’s Health Edinburgh.

5/ I couldn’t talk about this with anyone who was not a gay man. I’m not saying that’s reasonable or fair. But yes, I wanted to exclude everyone who was not a gay man from that conversation, in that space.

6/ I’d previously volunteered for Gay Men’s Health. One time, a couple of straight kids knocked the door looking for “johnnies”. They were swiftly told to beat it, with appropriate directions to the nearest family planning clinic.

7/ The member of staff explained that their services and funds were explicitly for gay men. Although they didn’t, they could employ exclusively gay men if they wanted to. It’s weird but I always remembered that and in that moment it’s what brought me comfort.

8/ I felt able to reach out and talk to them. They could accommodate my need for exclusion. Gay men only. My safe space. They had women on staff, heterosexual mothers & everything. However, my request for gay councillors was handled with nothing but compassion & understanding.

9/ I needed the services of a councillor as much as the doctor because two things had become apparent. 1) I was HIV positive. This condition is fatal if you do not receive treatment. 2) I wanted to kill myself. This condition is fatal if you do not receive treatment.

10/ I could not have got through it without the help of Gay Men’s Health. I would not have contacted them if they were not specifically gay. I wouldn’t have been able to talk to anyone who wasn’t a gay man. More than that I needed to feel safe in asking for that.

11/ I think I probably would have ended it all if I couldn’t access those services. If they had been “Queer, Gender Diverse, Non-binary, Trans People’s Health” I would not have contacted them. My fear of talking to anyone who is not gay regarding my HIV would have prevented me.

12/ I don’t like to talk about HIV. I don’t like to talk about me having it. Don’t mistake that for me having even half a fuck to give about what anyone else thinks about my diagnosis. Because I don’t. No fucks given. That’s the easy part.

13/ It’s what I think that’s the problem. I’m not ashamed, I just can’t forgive myself. And I hate myself for getting it. I don’t talk about it openly because I would hate it more if other HIV positive people heard it and thought I thought the same about them. I don’t.

14/ Most people with HIV blow my mind with their bravery and the example they set. I wish I was like them. I’m not. I still need someone to talk to sometimes. I still need that person to be a gay man. I still need those services and spaces.

15/ Happy endings only happen in massage parlours. This, unfortunately, is real life. Things have got better. I’m not a danger to myself or others most of the time. I’m adjusting. Still. I’m not trying to weaponise my diagnosis against anyone.

16/ Many different people from different communities have HIV. Everyone is important and should be equal in rights to treatment. My HIV diagnosis emphasises to me the importance of services specifically for gay men. Be it mental health or specific medical ones.

17/ It troubles me that in a world where queer theory & gender ideology reign supreme, where gay men won’t exist, that our services, & specifically their funding, won’t exist either. When it comes to the mental health aspect of my treatment, I still want to speak to a gay man.

18/ I still want to be ‘exclusionary’ & talk to someone who is like me. Even if that means excludingbuttergasptrans people. We hear a lot about suicide prevention & lived experience. Services that are specifically for gay men prevent suicide. That’s my lived experience.

19/ I would have tweeted about this myself, instead of anonymously, but didn’t want to open myself up to that sort of online abuse that comes from saying anything that doesn’t include trans; just for standing up for services aimed at supporting any distinct group.

From here:twitter.com/HumanGayMale/status/1333746146884411399?s=19

@EndoplasmicReticulum

Has some sort of bat signal gone out today or something? It's like a tag team of plopping, goading and other associated nonsense.

I can only assume it's as a result of a fair few things happening recently which have put an enormous amount on sunlight on the subject. There also seems to be a huge push to frame the discussion as 'anti trans' instead of what it is, which is pro woman.

Single sex spaces exist for many reasons and sex is a protected characteristic under the Equalities Act 2010. Women are fighting against the erosion of single sex spaces by institutions and organisations who are determinedly trying to conflate sex with gender. Women are being put in danger right now due to this societal change - the MOJ has recently had a case brought against it by a woman raped in prison by a transwoman in which the ruling was that yes, women will be harmed and in fear because of males in the female estate but that this is less important than 'inclusion'.

The constant invocation of public toilets and 'we just want to pee' is an attempt to trivialise it. It's a much bigger problem - think of prisons, rape crisis centres, hospitals, health care etc etc.

That's without even going into issues around the homophobia aimed at lesbians, the obvious issues around safeguarding by the introduction of self ID, and the growing acceptability of vocalised misogyny against women.

Anyone actually interested in the discussion who isn't just here to plop a 'you transphobic bigots' - you might find this thread a good introduction - www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

I'm sorry you had to read some of these callous unfeeling posts Chickeny.

@NannyOggsWhiskyStash

So am guessing that the warning that my gay son gave me about transphobic bigots on MN was true. Really expected more tolerance and empathy, transwomen are often horribly abused and maltreated, we should stand with them.

Do better.

@Abhannmor

I'm sorry you had to read some of these callous unfeeling posts Chickeny.

I get it.

People can only see the world as it applies to them personally.

They cannot envisage someone else's experiences or needs. Some don't want to.

I'm just tired of repeating that all of the protected characteristics matter equally. We are equal. None are supreme. Women matter too.

Chickeny

Women like you are one of the reasons I feel so strongly about this issue. You'll always have support here.

Not a derail, Chickeny. This is a feminist board. We're here for women.

These issues can throw up a lot of difficult feelings. And sadly we do get a lot of people posting who just don't seem to have any compassion or awareness, and are just here for a fight. Really important to practise self care and maintain your boundaries. You can always take a break and let others take up the slack for a bit. x

I've seen some of the usual TRAs/monitors on twitter posting about MN. That might be behind some of the plopping.

I know, and usually I am bolshy and strong, some might say offensively so.

But something in that last long one took me down to a snivelling mess. I think it was the pure hate.

I just want safe women's spaces.

TW should have their own safe spaces too. But this isn't my fight.

I sometimes just spend the evening doing angry needlework, jabbing needles into canvas.

Sending a gentle hug, Chickeny. Mumsnetty or not.

Stalkers on Twitter posting screenshots of women's conversations.

Take some time for yourself @Chickenyhead ❤️

Chickeny, sending you lots of sympathy.

@Chickenyhead Here with you.

"Why would they go to the trouble of dressing like women and going into a women's toilet to do that?"
You'll know that many women wear jeans and t-shirt, but assuming you mean something more "feminine", they don't need to go to that trouble. All self id requires is for any man to just say they're a woman. And, presto, they have a right to be there.

On that subject, I've just remembered this news report from 2013.

article

Charges were filed Tuesday against a man who wore a wig and women's clothing to disguise himself as he allegedly used a concealed camera to record "hours" of video of women in a Los Angeles-area department store restroom.

Jason Pomare, 33, of Palmdale, was arrested Saturday after customers contacted security officers at a Macy's store to report a man in the women's restroom. The security officers contacted a deputy, who was on patrol at the Antelope Valley Mall (map) when he saw a man matching the subject's description leave the store.

When the deputy found the man hiding in a mall storage area, the subject was wearing a wig, women's clothing and bra, according to a statement from the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department.

"The deputy noticed he was wearing a wig and appeared to have breasts," said Sgt. Brian Hudson, of the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department.

Pomare (pictured, right) was charged Tuesday with six counts of unlawful use of a concealed camera for purposes of sexual gratification. After his arrest, investigators said a video camera found in his purse had "hours" of video of women using the restroom inside the store.

The suspect pointed the concealed camera under restroom stalls, but one woman recognized the camera's red recording light and contacted security officers, investigators said. Pomare told detectives he had been in the restroom for about two hours, said Hudson.

Continues: www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/secret-recording-store-mall-antelope-valley-palmdale-restroom/2061060/

I wonder how many women spotted his maleness before that one woman spotted the camera's recording light, but thought they had no right to object in case he was trans.

After the Jim Crow laws were wiped out out in the USA, white women had to overcome their horror at black women coming into women's toilets. They've also had to get used to lesbians coming into their toilets. I think this is the next step.

I cannot believe that someone posted this trope. They are equating black women and lesbians with what? Males. How casually disrespectful to appropriate experiences of those women. Certainly when it is not for the benefit of black women or lesbians. Or even women who are both black and lesbian.

No, thank you.

Spectacular empathy fail from @NannyOggsWhiskyStash, but yet another live demonstration to readers of the very bias of trans activists who will prioritise empathy for transwomen above women who just posted a reaction to another trans activist who a few posts before told women that males who identify as women simply will never stop using same sex spaces because they will never respect females.

So, a woman, a horrific rape survivor responding to being told effectively that their needs are never going to be considered important and that their future public life will be limited because of this, reacts and gets told by @NannyOggsWhiskyStash, who has positioned themselves as another trans activist, that women discussing their needs are transphobic and the priority should again be the transwomen.

We know that not all trans people are like this and are also harmed by supposed allies pushing their own agendas.

How much more evidence do we need to see that there are some very morally corrupt people appointing themselves as spokespeople for trans people? This weekend has been particularly illustrative

Thank you @Yesindeedydoodey for continuing to 'educate' everyone with your many educationally bereft posts and thank you Nanny for your illustrative contribution. Well done to you both!

And Nanny, your son must be so, so proud of you today. Was he also on MN FWR this weekend educating us???

Chickeny

They can go ahead and be goady as they like as it all shines a light. I don't think the goady dudes understand that. Also, the women on here have seen it all before and are pretty professional by now at highlighting flaws in the arguments.

Indeed. Sunlight shows up all the dark corners, there's nowhere to hide.