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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is it only white middle class women who are GC?

643 replies

Ziegfeld · 24/07/2021 19:27

I recently summoned courage to have “the talk” with an old friend who is gay. I wanted to know his current thoughts on sex based rights, and I thought (as we are old friends) even if we disagreed we could have a civilised conversation about it.

Unfortunately I think he called me transphobic about five minutes into the conversation when I asked, so if we say let’s have self ID, how do we tell whether someone genuinely believes themselves to be a TW or is a man simply announcing he is a woman solely for the purposes of accessing women-only spaces for bad intent. ( His answers to that were “well we need safeguarding” and “there are hardly any TWs, this isn’t a real concern” and “well ideally we should all just have gender neutral changing rooms”)

Some more things were said by both of us which I won’t go into here because I am sure we’ve all heard them before.

But then he said that it’s only white middle class women (like me) who have a problem with self ID and allowing TW access to women’s spaces. He said that working class women and women of colour have no problem at all with it.

I don’t think this is true - look at Allison Bailey for example. But I would be interested to know what other MNers think. Is this a race and class issue? Or is it that white middle class women tend to have more platforms to speak out than other women?

OP posts:
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EdgeOfACoin · 29/07/2021 07:32

I was shocked to hear by a PP that women have been beating up mtf transitioners in women's toilets.

Please could I have some more information about these crimes? It's unusual to hear of women beating people up in toilets - I imagine these acts would have had a lot of publicity.

Also, such crimes would indicate that mtf transitioners are quite unsafe in women's toilets. It sounds as though they need their own spaces for their safety and dignity.

TerraNovaTwo · 29/07/2021 07:35

I'm not MC and my white background is not British.

I know men who are GC.

I'd bet any money that the overwhelming majority people in third world countries, of all races, are GC.

🙄

RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 29/07/2021 08:12

@ScreamingMeMe

Well, no, it's more like women do it only. That is, women beat up transwomen in women's toilets - that's happened often. But transwomen attacking women in women's toilets ... that's far rarer.

However yes, transwomen will keep using women's toilets, despite the law, because they'll assume - perhaps disgracefully in your view - that it's their right to have a pee without being beaten up.

Confused

I was just about to say that

Makes absolutely no sense…like the rest if the posts to be fair

Deliriumoftheendless · 29/07/2021 08:24

Honestly I think we’re missing the biggest scandal here. There’s so many transwomen carried off by eagles, trampled by rhinos and abducted by aliens. It’s an epidemic!

Honest, it is true and you’re horrible if you don’t do something about it.

#badeagles
#bigotedrhinos
#rightwingaliens

TheWeeDonkey · 29/07/2021 08:41

It seems like the thread has moved on but we always seem to end up in the bogs don't we? 😂

For me personally I spend as little time hanging around public toilets as I can so I don't know much about the gangs of marauding women beating up transwomen, are these women middle class or working class?

A class analysis of these bathroom thugs might be able to help us understand OPs friend's stance.

Deliriumoftheendless · 29/07/2021 08:49

Well, anything other than some weird fantasy in a randoms head might be useful, but we have what we have 🤷‍♀️

Helleofabore · 29/07/2021 08:51

Deliriumoftheendless

Can I have some verifiable evidence on that please???? Grin

[walks around humming the theme to close encounters]

ArtemesiaK · 29/07/2021 10:40

I think that the vast majority of the population would be GC if they knew what it was, including men with daughters, wives or other women that they cared about. Unfortunately it's just not on most people's radar, and we're not even allowed to bring attention to it for fear of being denounced as "transphobic"...

Deliriumoftheendless · 29/07/2021 10:40

Hellofabore- my friend’s bosses dog walker’s sister-in-law’s cousin told me.

Which is more proof than we’ll get from these clowns.

Deliriumoftheendless · 29/07/2021 10:42

But isn’t it a, shall we say, odd fantasy to have? Women beating up a fragile and delicate transwoman?

There’s probably (ie definitely) a forum somewhere that caters for that.

Helleofabore · 29/07/2021 10:50

Oh shame.

indeedy one of your posts has been deleted (as perhaps was intended). Still. I am sure people will piece together what was said from our answers.

It really was an excellent demonstration of the lengths some posters go to in their attempt to silence women.

NonnyMouse1337 · 29/07/2021 11:02

Wow! Transwomen getting beaten up by women in toilets! Sounds scary. I would highly recommend letting women's toilets be for women only i.e. the female kind, and transwomen would be safer in either the men's or separate gender neutral loos.

I'm really glad we've managed to solve this issue.

Now we can move onto more pressing matters like males in women's prisons.

C8H10N4O2 · 29/07/2021 11:21

he is not a man who catcalls or gropes or flashes at or hits women and feels no fraternity with them so he feels slightly aggrieved at being lumped in with those kind of men and told to fix the problem

Diddums. So this is about his feelings being hurt and not women's safety? He isn't an ally, he is part of the problem, just like most white middle class lefty men.

MellieBellie · 30/07/2021 13:33

Just spotted this AITA post on Reddit and it's relevant to this thread as it demonstrates that it's not only white MC woman who are GC.

In the post, a Muslim woman is asking if she is TA because she didn't feel comfortable removing her hijab in front of a transwomen.

www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/otvrul/aita_for_not_lying_about_why_i_could_not_remove/

"Another bridesmaid defends me and tell the girl to chill out. Tori comes over and says me not taking it off is a slap in the face to her identity. Im just shocked and had no clue what to do."

I found this quote to be quite illustrative of lack of respect for the needs/wishes of others. This women should not have been pressured into going against her religious beliefs.

TalkingOutYerArse · 30/07/2021 17:38

@MellieBellie

Just spotted this AITA post on Reddit and it's relevant to this thread as it demonstrates that it's not only white MC woman who are GC.

In the post, a Muslim woman is asking if she is TA because she didn't feel comfortable removing her hijab in front of a transwomen.

www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/otvrul/aita_for_not_lying_about_why_i_could_not_remove/

"Another bridesmaid defends me and tell the girl to chill out. Tori comes over and says me not taking it off is a slap in the face to her identity. Im just shocked and had no clue what to do."

I found this quote to be quite illustrative of lack of respect for the needs/wishes of others. This women should not have been pressured into going against her religious beliefs.

Yeah, saw that today too. Absolutely disgusting.

mobile.twitter.com/RadfemBlack/status/1420827778660851713

Reddit: archive.is/Y5Ggl

Chickenyhead · 30/07/2021 17:58

The mentality that trans rights are supreme to all other rights disgusts me.

Who the hell do these men think they are?

With friends like Jackie, who needs enemies. As for Tori, pleeeeease, the universe does not revolve around your fucking feelings.

Aaaarrrrgggghhhh

Yesindeedydoodey · 31/07/2021 11:05

"So, I can only interpret this as you admitting that there is a prevalence of males ‘flashing’ at women in women’s toilets. Your admitting it happens and, by your assertion that there are so many females beating up males who access the female toilets, we can take it you accept it happens often."

May I suggest you give your skills at interpreting an overhaul? No, I doubt very much that there's a prevalence of males 'flashing' at women in women's toilets. But by all means provide the evidence for its prevalence, as I asked. :)

"So, your breezy Not flashing at a woman, mind you, but actually beating one up? was indeed a very interesting distinction to your post. Very enlightening and very much focuses a spotlight to your intentions to distract with misinformation and dismissal, knowing that even you have to acknowledge that the prevalence of males exposing their penises in women’s toilets cannot be denied."

It's not actually me, and those who support a similar view, who's doing most of the distracting and dismissing in this debate. It's your side, frankly. The evidence of transwomen even flashing in women's toilets, let alone attacking them more severely than that (can we agree that 'attacking' is worse than 'flashing at'?) is sparse at best. Yet, for some reason, it's been turned into an unholy terror.

It's currently estimated that about one in a hundred people are transgender. Some two thirds of those will be transwomen. Of those transwomen who even have the courage to use a public toilet, and opt for a women's toilet, most will want to get in and out without incident. Well, obviously, because that's what most people of any sex/gender want to do. Of those men who want to attack, or flash at, women, only a few will be weird and daft enough (for all sorts of reasons) to think that the best place to do that will be in a women's toilet. Of those, I'd imagine the tiniest few would have their heads together well enough to be deterred by any law or any sign on the door of a women's toilet.

This debate, for me, has been much more about women's fears than realities. The former are of course valid and not to be dismissed - but it seems the realities - particularly likelihoods of certain horrors ever happening - have been largely swept aside. Relatedly: the very first thing to do when dealing with a fear is to learn to know your enemy. Frankly, I see little of that here with regard to transwomen.

I see even less regard for the safety of transwomen. They are humans, and have the human right to physical safety. For whatever reason they transition, I don't expect it's done for frivolous reasons. I don't like to see people who are already having very hard lives made any harder than necessary.

Deliriumoftheendless · 31/07/2021 11:14

We got that evidence for transwomen being beaten up in toilets by women yet?

NecessaryScene · 31/07/2021 11:21

I know there was one incident in the US where 2 women were charged with assaulting a transwoman in a female toilet.

Last time I checked I failed to find any reports on sentencing, despite the initial charges being relatively widely reported, leading me to assume they were acquitted.

And I do recall reading a report that the alleged victim in that case was later arrested for assault himself. (Imagine my shock). But unfortunately I've failed to find that report either - I've lost his name, and it wasn't included in the reports of the original charges.

Maybe someone with better digging skills than me could find it. It would be useful to have concrete information that the one documented set of charges were false and originating from someone themselves guilty of assault.

Oh, there was also that time Yaniv accused Amy Hamm of something in a toilet. That (obviously) went nowhere, but he enjoyed himself at least.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 31/07/2021 11:28

And I do recall reading a report that the alleged victim in that case was later arrested for assault himself.

Sexual assault. It was posted on Twitter the other day, I wish I had bookmarked as I also can't find it.

Deliriumoftheendless · 31/07/2021 11:34

I’m sure one of our chums can do the digging to educate us. Yeah?

KittenKong · 31/07/2021 12:06

Plus what constitutes assault - crimes can be pretty ‘open to interpretation’ these days. Could be a punch to the head or calling them a ‘wrong’ name or word.

334bu · 31/07/2021 12:54

Depending on your viewpoint" Hey son you're in the wrong changing room/toilet" is tantamount to GBH.

KittenKong · 31/07/2021 12:56

You only need to raise an eyebrow or NOT give a huge grin of solidarity...

Chickenyhead · 31/07/2021 14:22

I agree that transwomen deserve safety and dignity. I agree that they deal with abuse to a high extent and are at risk from men. I agree that they deserve their own unique safespaces.

What I do not agree, is that this should impact on women's safe spaces to any extent.

Women have always been at risk from men. More than 20% of us have been assaulted by men. Transwomen are men by sex. They offend at the same rate.

Women are not being unreasonable. Men are, by pushing forcibly to place women at increased risk.