Posie Parker's latest - Glasgow

[TheShadowyFeminist]

I wilted in the heat so missed the pub afterwards. But PP's comments on the 'fawning' I'm finding interesting. Because even at a meeting of women who are fighting for their rights, and the right to say no to any male, irrespective of identity, being given access to female only services/space/provision/sport etc. it seems that female socialisation kicks in when a male wears a dress.

I've been involved in this fight for a number of years now, and I've witnessed how the inclusion of males, irrespective of claimed gender identity, often shifts the tone, the balance, the atmosphere for women & limits what they will say/do to further their cause. It also means that some women who really need that female solidarity can't access it.

I think the 'fawning' is something that we al need to reflect on & work out why this is how some of us behave over someone who (as far as I'm aware) has failed to acknowledge their part in writing guidance for schools that breach female children's rights under the UNCRC.

I think we all need to 'be more Posie' in life & activism.

DH wasn't the only author of the schools guidance, there were others. I don't know if it's within his power to 'withdraw it'. What he could do that would be useful is to personally and publicly say it was wrong.

Hayton was thanked at the beginning and end of the school toolkit. In 2019 in a TES article he particularly recommended the part of it which described how best to support children when fathers announce they are 'transitioning'. Hayton holds a position in NASUWT and as such has both influence and responsibility. Those who promote him and are involved with teaching and/or unions really should ensure they are fully aware of the facts.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3938537-NASUWT-Trans-Equality-in-Schools

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3582158-debbie-hayton-in-the-tes

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4205956-Unite-Unions-and-Many-Other-LGBT-Organisations-Lobby-Government-to-Lower-the-Age-of-Consent

Thinking about the idea that you can 'dress how you please' and is it then reasonable to be upset by a man in a dress with fake boobs? Of course it is not unreasonable to be uncomfortable when someone's clothing choice is not chosen in order to express their distinctive style but rather for sexual pleasure. It makes us unconsenting participants in their sexual activity.

Can someone answer me this why some ok with using her/she but not woman. If feels like compromised.

That her/she belongs to me - women.

I will address you by name we taught to and adults Mrs & Mr, Ms Surname unless they gave you permission to use forename.

Never by her as it follows Q who you calling her, the cats mother. You weren’t allowed to answer that as sure as hell didn’t mean a man!

Using this only as example

Someone will go yay trans Widows then in next breath writes DH ‘she’ yet a trans no different to DH they like fck off.

It’s actually a mental fuck and I not going there again.

Wallpapering I think it is to protect their accounts...a lot of women have lost their accounts for correctly sexing these men. I agree with you though...it is a head fuck and I don't go there. Not least because I feel I am slapping the face of every woman and girl who suffer tremendously across the globe because they really ARE she/her.

I use neutral or names. I will not incorrectly sex males. But I have to play by the silly house rules of where I am posting. Fwiw, it is very hard to post this way, and some women may find it easier to avoid the banhammer and slip ups by using the incorrect pronouns. We all find our own ways to deal with the ridiculous language coercion.

I once read a poster on here describe the behaviour of an autogynephile as being the equivalent of them drawing a long hot bath filled with women’s oppression and then sitting down to have a wank in it.

I can’t remember who it was, but I thought it was very descriptive. I also expect this post will be deleted.

Ok Tks

Another question, DH is an ally to who?

I saw this a lot in past on Twitter is was said to them in way of saying shut up women.

DH an ally because he got a chair at every fcking event instead of a woman, an made himself an ally. Let’s empower women by letting man speak for women about women because when battle is won guess who sitting at head table the man who was ally cycle repeat

I think that anyone still on the fence about Dr Hayton's involvement in feminism should go to Tinsel's website and read the stories on there. Think of the commonalities between those stories - the aping of the wife's appearance, the self absorption, the hiding of clothes-as-masturbatory-aids around the house, the escalations when female children reach puberty, the coercive control cutting off sources of support for wives, the binges, the purges, the lack of support/refusal to believe wives when they told friends and relatives, the chaperoning so that wives can't speak openly.

We all agree that these stories are shocking and that they were often instrumental in making us understand what was going on, right?

After that, I suggest keeping those stories in mind and going to listen to the Haytons' interview on Straight Spouse Network.

Then see if you're still on the fence.

Quilette Published on February 2, 2020
'I May Have Gender Dysphoria. But I Still Prefer to Base My Life on Biology, Not Fantasy'
written by Debbie Hayton
(extract)
"My position has moved massively in four years. In early 2016 I still thought I was some sort of woman and I got very upset when challenged because I couldn't defend my claims without resorting to gobbledegook." (continues)
quillette.com/2020/02/02/i-may-have-gender-dysphoria-but-i-still-prefer-to-base-my-life-on-biology-not-fantasy/

'NASUWT Trans Equality in Schools and Colleges
Advice and Guidance for Teachers and Leaders' published 2017
At the front & end is acknowledgement,

^"The NASUWT is very grateful to Dr Debbie Hayton (Teacher) for
assisting in the development of this guidance."^

NASUWT advice to SLT makes clear the Union will support perceived discrimination claims with legal action though this is clearly more for the benefit of its members who are Schoolmasters under the wide self-id trans umbrella (including cross-dressers) rather than Women Teachers who have the protected characteristic of sex.

(extract)
"Supporting Dual-role People
Some people manage their gender dysphoria by living as a man or a woman in different aspects of their lives. For example, they may work in a male role but socialise in a female role.
Although the protected characteristic under the Equality Act is gender reassignment, it is best to assume that dual-role people are covered by perception that they might transition.
Like everyone else they deserve to be treated with dignity and respect.
In practical terms, there should be no issues unless the different aspects of their lives overlap in some way. For example, a male teacher might want to attend a staff party as a woman. In that case they would probably prefer to use a female name and feminine pronouns, and they should be allowed to use the toilets appropriate to the gender in which they are presenting.
As referenced on page 4, it is always far better to ask the person concerned before applying any arbitrary label to them. " (continues)

Dr Em's analysis of Hayton's TES article, (with annotated PDF):

"With regards the argument 'views change, that was 2017', Hayton's TES article 'Supporting transgender students: what you need to know' dated 10 May 2019 links to the 2017 NASUWT as a 'comprehensive document'."
twitter.com/PankhurstEM/status/1272569974264074241

For example, a male teacher might want to attend a staff party as a woman. In that case they would probably prefer to use a female name and feminine pronouns, and they should be allowed to use the toilets appropriate to the gender in which they are presenting.

This always particularly gets me, because I don't think any teacher is likely to think that a colleague will beat them up in the toilets at the staff party if they go in there cross dressed, so the motive for this can only be affirmation and boundary pushing (or I suppose in a worst case scenario, voyeurism) . How on earth is reinforcing boundary (or voyeurism) pushing the role of a trade union?

It is the stealth thing - get the staff used to it when they're a bit tipsy at parties, then they won't object during the day either. Get them on board.

and they should be allowed to use the toilets appropriate to the gender in which they are presenting

Why?

@DodoPatrol

and they should be allowed to use the toilets appropriate to the gender in which they are presenting

Why?

Male entitlement?

Being accepted as "on our side" by gender critical feminists and invading our intellectual spaces and usurping our public platforms is a particularly sophisticated expression of autogynephilia and one with which I'm most uncomfortable.

@TinselAngel

For example, a male teacher might want to attend a staff party as a woman. In that case they would probably prefer to use a female name and feminine pronouns, and they should be allowed to use the toilets appropriate to the gender in which they are presenting.

This always particularly gets me, because I don't think any teacher is likely to think that a colleague will beat them up in the toilets at the staff party if they go in there cross dressed, so the motive for this can only be affirmation and boundary pushing (or I suppose in a worst case scenario, voyeurism) . How on earth is reinforcing boundary (or voyeurism) pushing the role of a trade union?

It's so insidious.

Before you know it, you are accepting a male, in an all-female space, who has already told you that the reason that they are there is because they find it sexually arousing. Both by being there, and your acceptance of them there, whether forced or not. 'They should be allowed'.

No they shouldn't. Why??

I know the term cognitive dissonance is often used, but I genuinely don't understand how people can't see it exploding all over this.

Is it pity?

Because judging from what I perceive as manipulation, pity is so vastly misplaced, it's not even funny.

@KohlaParasanda

Being accepted as "on our side" by gender critical feminists and invading our intellectual spaces and usurping our public platforms is a particularly sophisticated expression of autogynephilia and one with which I'm most uncomfortable.

I completely agree. It's totally naive to see it any other way.

There's enormous relief when a man or a TW gets it and speaks up for us because they have ten times the reach women do - they get listened to.

I’ve never fawned over DH or actually ever met them, I’m fairly new-ish to GC feminism but have up to now taken this view ^.

This thread and video have made very interesting reading and viewing though and I’ll read/watch again over the weekend when I have time to absorb it all properly.

Standards are really low for men, he wrote that TES all is forgiven & an ally. He not an ally you are his.

Just watched it all
I can feel steam coming out my ears that DH was paid to speak at women’s event, everything would of irritated me even the dress.

Our worlds couldn’t be so opposite but you know where you stand with Posie no mixed messages.

Really is cock sure of himself sitting next to Posie cos she ain’t gana butter it up.

Came her in peace now raging.

Hayton gives away a great deal in this 2020 interview with Benjamin Boyce, including that he sees his role within transactivism as being like an Old Testament prophet and that, "it's just that there is something which was insatiably driving me to effectively sex signal in the same way that women sex signal."

Because judging from what I perceive as manipulation, pity is so vastly misplaced, it's not even funny.

Some trans women deserve pity, some don't. Some need protection from toxic masculinity, some don't. Some just want to get on with a quiet life, some don't.

None of them are female and pretending they are is bad for them and us, but that doesn't mean we have to close our ears to the ways they think they are different to other men.

The tragedy of the No Debate gender orthodoxy is any attempt to talk about why some people adopt trans personas, the different drivers behind them and the different types of support that are appropriate and helpful is shot down as transphobic.

The elephant in the room, the blind spot, the truth that remains unspoken is that for many trans women this isn't really about being women at all, we are just a handy signifier for the things they think they can't be as men. The problem is with the narrowness of what men are allowed to be. But patriarchy does not countenance any close inspection of men, because men are the neutral centre that everything else is defined against.

he sees his role within transactivism as being like an Old Testament prophet

Grandiose! Moi?

You do realize DH is viewed with contempt by genderists, too, yes? I saw a conversation in religious LGBT+ circles where genderists were apoplectic that DH and Stephanie Hayton were part of a Church of England project on LGBT+ things. It was one long list of them calling DH hateful and bigoted. They were putting together letters to church authorities that specifically named DH as unrepresentative of their concerns as Trans people.

So who exactly do people think DH is reaching and persuading with the cribbed words from women? As far as I can see, DH is serving DH.

Imo, the only credible feminist response is to act in the way which means the women who have been affected by DH, particularly his wife and children, can be confident that their voices will be heard.

And do as WhatKatyDidNot suggested upthread.

@Blibbyblobby

Because judging from what I perceive as manipulation, pity is so vastly misplaced, it's not even funny.

Some trans women deserve pity, some don't. Some need protection from toxic masculinity, some don't. Some just want to get on with a quiet life, some don't.

None of them are female and pretending they are is bad for them and us, but that doesn't mean we have to close our ears to the ways they think they are different to other men.

The tragedy of the No Debate gender orthodoxy is any attempt to talk about why some people adopt trans personas, the different drivers behind them and the different types of support that are appropriate and helpful is shot down as transphobic.

The elephant in the room, the blind spot, the truth that remains unspoken is that for many trans women this isn't really about being women at all, we are just a handy signifier for the things they think they can't be as men. The problem is with the narrowness of what men are allowed to be. But patriarchy does not countenance any close inspection of men, because men are the neutral centre that everything else is defined against.

I can, of course, empathise with a man who is crippled by patriarchal expectations of toxic masculinity, and seeks refuge.

I even understand how women's oppression can be fetishised, given it's fucking everywhere. And is portrayed in 99% of all pornography.

But if you I have the smallest self analysis, and the minimum self reflection, you will absolutely understand how it damages women, which obviously Hayton does. And so there is no excuse.

There are men, of course, who are so blinded by misogyny, they don't realise how they are damaging women. But anyone with an ounce of intellect totally gets it. Particularly when they are ostensibly actually campaigning for women, for goodness sake.

You do realize DH is viewed with contempt by genderists, too,
That's why they're not here disrupting a Posie thread like they usually do.

Imo, the only credible feminist response is to act in the way which means the women who have been affected by DH, particularly his wife and children, can be confident that their voices will be heard.

And do as WhatKatyDidNot suggested upthread.

This ^^

Revelant links
www.transwidowsvoices.org/

www.straightspouse.org/voices-podcast/s3-ep-18-how-gender-transition-impacts-a-couple/

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4053058-Debbie-and-Stephanie-Hayton-interview-transcript

childrenoftransitioners.org/