Posie Parker's latest - Glasgow

[TheShadowyFeminist]

I wilted in the heat so missed the pub afterwards. But PP's comments on the 'fawning' I'm finding interesting. Because even at a meeting of women who are fighting for their rights, and the right to say no to any male, irrespective of identity, being given access to female only services/space/provision/sport etc. it seems that female socialisation kicks in when a male wears a dress.

I've been involved in this fight for a number of years now, and I've witnessed how the inclusion of males, irrespective of claimed gender identity, often shifts the tone, the balance, the atmosphere for women & limits what they will say/do to further their cause. It also means that some women who really need that female solidarity can't access it.

I think the 'fawning' is something that we al need to reflect on & work out why this is how some of us behave over someone who (as far as I'm aware) has failed to acknowledge their part in writing guidance for schools that breach female children's rights under the UNCRC.

I think we all need to 'be more Posie' in life & activism.

Well done to Posie for saying this. Many of us here on FWR have been making this for point for several years and quite often it still seems to fall on deaf ears, even here.

Haha, I knew this was going to be about DH. Love Posie for her fearlessness.

The reality is, 'Debbie' gets something out of this, validation that he is somehow 'more authentic', than the rest, I dunno. He is happy to point at others and show them up for their farce, but still maintains his own. It's quite disturbing, and I believe he is smart and thinks he has outwitted us all.

I admit at first I was just glad that DH was speaking out in a rational sense, but it's clear that DH thinks that they are different, and one of us. Maybe I was just so glad to hear rationality from a male who seemed to care. But it's all for their own benefit, nothing more than an exercise in validation.

They will never be one of us, they are part of the problem, not the solution.

I'm glad to say there was no fawning from me (I've noted the arguments on this) and didn't witness the is either. But I know it happened & I'm really interested in why.

If anyone wants to try and break down why they did (or would in the same circumstances) I think it would be a helpful way to work out why this is an issue and why we need to 'be more posie' when it comes to this stuff.

I think dealing with people can feel a bit awkward for many of us & we tend to fall back on that female socialisation when we fear the reaction to being like Posie & being clear & unequivocal about our boundaries and when others push those.

I do think it's worth reflecting on because it's definitely a 'thing' for others to take advantage of that female socialisation, to enable transgressing boundaries that we are trying to hold onto.

I think women are very attached to being able to hold up "proof" that they are not transphobic.

@TinselAngel

I think women are very attached to being able to hold up "proof" that they are not transphobic.

That's a big part of it too.

It's just not necessary to compromise personal boundaries/lines to maintain your ability to not be transphobic!

The one amazing thing I've got from all this is the amazing female solidarity when women get together & boost each other. It's a very different dynamic when males step into that arena & it doesn't benefit women either.

They will never be one of us, they are part of the problem, not the solution.

Why single out Hayton, rather than, say, Linehan or Kirkup? What's Hayton doing that's particularly objectionable, other than being trans?

Also I love that she used the term 'interloper' about DH, so apt. I keep thinking how smug he must feel getting all the fawning from women.

And pretty telling that he will not acknowledge that he benefits from the schools guidance that he helped to write, and uses women's toilets without shame.

I'm torn on whether to stop subscribing to the Spectator. I love James Kirkup and feel it's one of the few places writing honestly about this issue, but I can't believe they paid DH to attend this. What a farce!

@NecessaryScene

They will never be one of us, they are part of the problem, not the solution.

Why single out Hayton, rather than, say, Linehan or Kirkup? What's Hayton doing that's particularly objectionable, other than being trans?

The hypocrisy of co-authoring school guidance that breeches female children's rights under the UNCRC & not owning it? Or doing anything to undo the harm that guidance maintains while supposedly campaigning alongside women for male free space?

Just a guess 🤷‍♀️

Why single out Hayton, rather than, say, Linehan or Kirkup? What's Hayton doing that's particularly objectionable, other than being trans?

When Kirkup and Linehan get female passports, yet claim to be 'GC' males, I'm sure they'll be singled out, too.

@NecessaryScene

They will never be one of us, they are part of the problem, not the solution.

Why single out Hayton, rather than, say, Linehan or Kirkup? What's Hayton doing that's particularly objectionable, other than being trans?

Linehan and Kirkup don't use women's spaces, and I don't think either of them have ever attempted to deceive people about a material fact like their sex. Then there's that rather revealing interview with Hayton and wife, which I believe is available somewhere on MN. Does not come across in a good light at all.

I did notice Debbie at meeting and was a bit perplexed about why he kept moving around a bit aimlessly through the crowd. I wasn't at the pub later but must admit I didn't notice many women paying him much attention. There was a bit of " oh that must be Debbie Hayton" as he passed but no attempts to engage him.

Linehan and Kirkup to the best of my knowledge aren't saying one thing then doing another.

If either of them get involved in authoring policies or giving international lectures that discriminate against women and girls in the exact way they claim to be against then I'll take issue with them too.

@NecessaryScene

They will never be one of us, they are part of the problem, not the solution.

Why single out Hayton, rather than, say, Linehan or Kirkup? What's Hayton doing that's particularly objectionable, other than being trans?

Because they are men, who are not pretending to be women. I would have thought that was quite obvious.

Debbie does acknowledge that they are male, but still dresses like a woman and admits to using women's spaces. There is an incongruence there.

There is obv a difference between 'presenting as' the opposite sex (what Hayton does) and being gender non-conforming. Plenty of men and women don't conform to sex stereotypes - it's the deceptive intent that differentiates them.

I was there on the day and it was pretty obvious that Hayton was trying to insert himself into photos and into conversations. That damn female socialisation kicked in for a lot of women who obviously felt they couldn't tell him no or they would appear rude.

He was clearly there for a reason and low and behold there was a story all about the day by him in the Spectator the next day. Using the women who were there and who spoke to further his own career.
Hayton has his own agenda and he is willing to use women to get what he wants. We should not let him do so

Linehan and Kirkup don't use women's spaces, and I don't think either of them have ever attempted to deceive people about a material fact like their sex. Then there's that rather revealing interview with Hayton and wife, which I believe is available somewhere on MN. Does not come across in a good light at all.

actually, Linehan has dressed up as multiple mock lesbians and posted profiles on a trans-inclusive lesbian dating site, which is modelling exactly the behaviour that he is supposedly opposing: cis men entering women's spaces for personal gratification.

DH is covering all his bases, and is not ‘different or in any way special and should not be trusted.

@CatherinaJTV

Linehan and Kirkup don't use women's spaces, and I don't think either of them have ever attempted to deceive people about a material fact like their sex. Then there's that rather revealing interview with Hayton and wife, which I believe is available somewhere on MN. Does not come across in a good light at all.

actually, Linehan has dressed up as multiple mock lesbians and posted profiles on a trans-inclusive lesbian dating site, which is modelling exactly the behaviour that he is supposedly opposing: cis men entering women's spaces for personal gratification.

As far as I recall, he did that to prove a point - that he as a man did not belong on a lesbian dating site. A bit disingenuous to claim that he did it for him own reasons, like DH is doing.

@CatherinaJTV

Linehan and Kirkup don't use women's spaces, and I don't think either of them have ever attempted to deceive people about a material fact like their sex. Then there's that rather revealing interview with Hayton and wife, which I believe is available somewhere on MN. Does not come across in a good light at all.

actually, Linehan has dressed up as multiple mock lesbians and posted profiles on a trans-inclusive lesbian dating site, which is modelling exactly the behaviour that he is supposedly opposing: cis men entering women's spaces for personal gratification.

Then by definition it's a mixed-sex space, isn't it?

Parody to highlight a problem =/= breaching women's boundaries while claiming to be an ally.

Also, please don't use the c*s slur. I don't think GL identifies with it and it's certainly against forum guidelines, just as you'll note the painstaking effort not to 'misgender' DH or call anyone a TIM.

breaching women's boundaries while claiming to be an ally

This so accurately sums up DH's stance.

@CatherinaJTV

Linehan and Kirkup don't use women's spaces, and I don't think either of them have ever attempted to deceive people about a material fact like their sex. Then there's that rather revealing interview with Hayton and wife, which I believe is available somewhere on MN. Does not come across in a good light at all.

actually, Linehan has dressed up as multiple mock lesbians and posted profiles on a trans-inclusive lesbian dating site, which is modelling exactly the behaviour that he is supposedly opposing: cis men entering women's spaces for personal gratification.

I don't think he was expecting to get any dates TBH. 🤣

It was a publicity stunt.

cis is a prefix, not a slur. I am a cis woman. Linehan, as a man (born and identified as such) has absolutely NO business in a lesbian space. I note though that you think that women's spaces should be open for the "parodies" of men. Great Feminism (slow clap).

I completely agree with what she's saying.

I used to listen to 'allies' until a pretty, popular TW started a gofundme for facial feminisation surgery. And I thought, hang on...

I have been villified by other feminists for using male pronouns for this person, who is quite clear they are a man. A GC with a large following tried to sic her followers on me but they weren't having it.

@CatherinaJTV

cis is a prefix, not a slur. I am a cis woman. Linehan, as a man (born and identified as such) has absolutely NO business in a lesbian space. I note though that you think that women's spaces should be open for the "parodies" of men. Great Feminism (slow clap).

There are women and transwomen.

Cis implies that women are a subset of the group women, which is nonsense. Woman means adult human female - and it's a word that doesn't include males.

@IheartJKR

DH is covering all his bases, and is not ‘different or in any way special and should not be trusted.

Definitely. I don't know why anyone expects him not to be looking after his own interests first.